Hile Troy not what he claimed to be thread?

[Vraith]

I'm going to say it straight out, since the intentions of my earlier one were missed/mistaken by some [but not others]:
Given the circumstances, HT was f-ing brilliant. He made mistakes, but he learned from them, and adapted. Inspired his people, and sacrificed himself for them.
If you think he's a failure/incompetent, you're confused.

[Barnetto]

I'm going to say it straight out, since the intentions of my earlier one were missed/mistaken by some [but not others]:
Given the circumstances, HT was f-ing brilliant. He made mistakes, but he learned from them, and adapted. Inspired his people, and sacrificed himself for them.
If you think he's a failure/incompetent, you're confused.

And what is more, his adaptation to circumstances is of an extraordinary kind. He starts out with a very strict (many say inflexible) military plan based on necessary logistical limitations etc. It's all very "our world". Then when faced with defeat and utter anihilation, he completely flips to a very Land-savvy fall back, entice the enemy into Garroting Deep, relying on offering up a Raver to a Forestal. It was brilliant.

I really think that people miss Hile Troy's astonishing redemption because he is blind to Covenant's difficulties and that makes him an unsympathetic character.

[Relayer]

I really think that people miss Hile Troy's astonishing redemption because he is blind to Covenant's difficulties and that makes him an unsympathetic character.

I agree with you. Yet at the same time, he's the character in the story that personfies the "voice of all of the readers." At that point in the story, most of us were thinking the same things about Covenant that Troy was...

[Darkdenubis]

Sorry, but I must disagree with you HT lovers, he wasn't brilliant at all...he was barely competent.

1)You base your entire plan on getting word of Foul's movement on 1 source (Gay/Rue).
2)You base your entire plan on pulling the enemy to a certain place (Doom's Retreat) to fight it. Um, what if he doesn't WANT to fight you there? Hmm?
3)You fail to store enough supplies for a siege at the place you chose to fight...you succeed in drawing the army to Doom's Retreat and only have food enough for 5 days??? Are you serious???
4)He takes NO account of Foul's use of the Stone, none. Did he really think this would be just a battle of numbers? (All we need is X amount of troops to beat Y amount of troops!)
5)You make ZERO plans on your lines of retreat, NONE. (Gee, I wonder what's behind Doom's Retreat? Ah, nevermind, it will never come to that!)

Sure, he adapted...because he had no choice. He put himself (and his army) in a position of win or die, and it was only thru the intervention of the Forestal that he didn't get his forces completely wiped out.

Hile Troy=Berk.

[Barnetto]

Sorry, but I must disagree with you HT lovers, he wasn't brilliant at all...he was barely competent.

1)You base your entire plan on getting word of Foul's movement on 1 source (Gay/Rue).
2)You base your entire plan on pulling the enemy to a certain place (Doom's Retreat) to fight it. Um, what if he doesn't WANT to fight you there? Hmm?
3)You fail to store enough supplies for a siege at the place you chose to fight...you succeed in drawing the army to Doom's Retreat and only have food enough for 5 days??? Are you serious???
4)He takes NO account of Foul's use of the Stone, none. Did he really think this would be just a battle of numbers? (All we need is X amount of troops to beat Y amount of troops!)
5)You make ZERO plans on your lines of retreat, NONE. (Gee, I wonder what's behind Doom's Retreat? Ah, nevermind, it will never come to that!)

Sure, he adapted...because he had no choice. He put himself (and his army) in a position of win or die, and it was only thru the intervention of the Forestal that he didn't get his forces completely wiped out.

Hile Troy=Berk.

Didn't notice any "HT lovers" particularly.... I called him "unsympathetic" and "not an overall likeable character".

As regards the failings of his battle plan, sure its easy to pick holes in it. You might enjoy the alternative at theland.antgear.com/ - which in my view has equally as many holes/false assumptions.

I think the point is that really, given the size of LF's forces it turned out to be impossible to defeat Fleshharrower etc in a conventional war - so even if he had planned as you suggest, it would have made little difference. And eventually, at the death, HT came good with with entirely his own daring and unconventional plan.

Incompetent initially as a logistical war strategist? Quite possibly... I'm not enough of a military strategist to comment really! Though I would point out that most people seem to (a) be making large assumptions as to what he had at his power of command/control (b) assume that a strategy akin to a real world strategy would be appropriate to the land (c) fail to note the fact that he had the backing of the Lords for the plan and its acknowledged risks and (d) that this was accepted to be an all or nothing strategy, it was win or bust - if they lost then the Land was lost. Also remember that he hadn't been in the Land for long, so any longer term strategic failings (eg failure to build a big enough army, put more people through the Loresraat etc) were those of the Lords rather than HT.

(Also, wasn't it the case that he was planning contingently for LF's army either coming from the North or the South? Which would rule out several of your complaints, other than the scouting one... and what exactly was he supposed to do to counter the Illearth Stone....?)

But I guess I'm just trying to redress the balance a little by reference to his subsequent actions.

[peter]

I think darkdenubis's list above pertains more to Kaos Arcana's earlier poin about SRD's limitations in respect of writting (or indeed thinking) like a battle strategist (is it called Games Theory or am I mixing it up with something else?). ie. What we are seeing is Donaldsons competance, or rather not, as a developer of battle strategies rather than Troys. Donaldson may not have been deliberately writting Troy as an incompetant - it may have been incompetant constuction of what was meant to be a competant charachter.

[Barnetto]

True, I don't think SRD set out to make him incompetent. I do think that SRD set out to make him take too much responsibility for his actions and planning to show the dangers inherent in the despair that can follow from failing in such a situation (the opposite of power in weakness and all that....).

So from a writing point of view I guess it was necessary that HT have a strategy that fail (as someone pointed out above). I think the failure was supposed to arise, mostly, at least from aspects outside his control (the unfeasible size of LF's army, the use of Illearth Stone etc), rather than HT's "incompetence". Perhaps (judging by other posts) SRD failed in that regard, therefore.

[peter]

I think the failure was supposed to arise, mostly, at least from aspects outside his control (the unfeasible size of LF's army, the use of Illearth Stone etc), rather than HT's "incompetence". Perhaps (judging by other posts) SRD failed in that regard, therefore.

Apparently in war strategy you must always plan for the worst case scenario and yes in this case HT failed, but I fully agree that his failings were due to aspects outside his controll. Where I differ from some views expressed above, is that I believe that ultimatly HT suceeded. When the things beyond his controll were presented to him yes he freaked out for a while - who wouldn't - but then he got a grip and pulled victory from the jaws of defeat in the most audacious way imaginable. And yes, he relied on Morham to do it for him - but what battle commander doesn't require acts of sacrifice from his 'subordinates' and in a certain sence Morham was just a tool like any other to be used as neccesary for the succesfull completion of the task in hand.