Kevin's Watch

I am kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner, but we need to remember that Nom became a much smarter and more potent being after rending and absorbing samadhi Sheol. Therefore the answer to the poll question will, for me, change depending on whether we are talking about the pre-rending Nom, who would have had the same immense physical powers as any other Sandgorgon, or the post-rending Nom, who also had conscious intelligence and access to all the theurgical tricks known to the Ravers, including the means by which the Clave were able to harm Vain in TWL.

DrPaul wrote:I am kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner, but we need to remember that Nom became a much smarter and more potent being after rending and absorbing samadhi Sheol. Therefore the answer to the poll question will, for me, change depending on whether we are talking about the pre-rending Nom, who would have had the same immense physical powers as any other Sandgorgon, or the post-rending Nom, who also had conscious intelligence and access to all the theurgical tricks known to the Ravers, including the means by which the Clave were able to harm Vain in TWL.

Umm.....what book did you read?
The only gain from the rending that we know about was the ability to communicate in the way the Haruchai talk to themselves.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

DrPaul wrote:I am kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner, but we need to remember that Nom became a much smarter and more potent being after rending and absorbing samadhi Sheol. Therefore the answer to the poll question will, for me, change depending on whether we are talking about the pre-rending Nom, who would have had the same immense physical powers as any other Sandgorgon, or the post-rending Nom, who also had conscious intelligence and access to all the theurgical tricks known to the Ravers, including the means by which the Clave were able to harm Vain in TWL.

Umm.....what book did you read?
The only gain from the rending that we know about was the ability to communicate in the way the Haruchai talk to themselves.

Yes, but if you remember, in WGW Nom tells Cail, who tells Covenant and Linden, that "from the rending of the Raver the Sandgorgon has found means for the unmaking of Sandgorgon's Doom" which would indicate that Nom had learned at least one very powerful theurgy.

DrPaul wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

DrPaul wrote:I am kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner, but we need to remember that Nom became a much smarter and more potent being after rending and absorbing samadhi Sheol. Therefore the answer to the poll question will, for me, change depending on whether we are talking about the pre-rending Nom, who would have had the same immense physical powers as any other Sandgorgon, or the post-rending Nom, who also had conscious intelligence and access to all the theurgical tricks known to the Ravers, including the means by which the Clave were able to harm Vain in TWL.

Umm.....what book did you read?
The only gain from the rending that we know about was the ability to communicate in the way the Haruchai talk to themselves.

Yes, but if you remember, in WGW Nom tells Cail, who tells Covenant and Linden, that "from the rending of the Raver the Sandgorgon has found means for the unmaking of Sandgorgon's Doom" which would indicate that Nom had learned at least one very powerful theurgy.

Not necessarily, the means of unmaking almost everything is much easier, and more likely to be raw physical power, than the making.

Vraith wrote:

DrPaul wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Umm.....what book did you read?
The only gain from the rending that we know about was the ability to communicate in the way the Haruchai talk to themselves.

Yes, but if you remember, in WGW Nom tells Cail, who tells Covenant and Linden, that "from the rending of the Raver the Sandgorgon has found means for the unmaking of Sandgorgon's Doom" which would indicate that Nom had learned at least one very powerful theurgy.

Not necessarily, the means of unmaking almost everything is much easier, and more likely to be raw physical power, than the making.

On the other hand, the raw physical power of the Sandgorgons is clearly not enough on its to break out of the Doom, so Nom must have learned something. It may simply be that the Sandgorgons could be more effective against the Doom by coordinating their efforts, but it may be a theurgy.

DrPaul wrote:

Vraith wrote:

DrPaul wrote: Yes, but if you remember, in WGW Nom tells Cail, who tells Covenant and Linden, that "from the rending of the Raver the Sandgorgon has found means for the unmaking of Sandgorgon's Doom" which would indicate that Nom had learned at least one very powerful theurgy.

Not necessarily, the means of unmaking almost everything is much easier, and more likely to be raw physical power, than the making.

On the other hand, the raw physical power of the Sandgorgons is clearly not enough on its to break out of the Doom, so Nom must have learned something. It may simply be that the Sandgorgons could be more effective against the Doom by coordinating their efforts, but it may be a theurgy.

That makes sense.
I always thought it was the mere ability to communicate, some sort of speech, that would allow it to "break" the Doom.
But I like your idea better.

Hmm....I'm going to post a question I just thought of dealing with this in the FR forum.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

DrPaul wrote:I am kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner, but we need to remember that Nom became a much smarter and more potent being after rending and absorbing samadhi Sheol. Therefore the answer to the poll question will, for me, change depending on whether we are talking about the pre-rending Nom, who would have had the same immense physical powers as any other Sandgorgon, or the post-rending Nom, who also had conscious intelligence and access to all the theurgical tricks known to the Ravers, including the means by which the Clave were able to harm Vain in TWL.

Umm.....what book did you read?
The only gain from the rending that we know about was the ability to communicate in the way the Haruchai talk to themselves.

Wow, where's the "put foot in my mouth" Emoticon.

FR spoilers:

Spoiler

I just reread the FR part that says that they did in fact learn the Raver's

lore.
Sorry!

(I spoilerized a bit of HLT's post.)

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

DrPaul wrote:I am kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner, but we need to remember that Nom became a much smarter and more potent being after rending and absorbing samadhi Sheol. Therefore the answer to the poll question will, for me, change depending on whether we are talking about the pre-rending Nom, who would have had the same immense physical powers as any other Sandgorgon, or the post-rending Nom, who also had conscious intelligence and access to all the theurgical tricks known to the Ravers, including the means by which the Clave were able to harm Vain in TWL.

Umm.....what book did you read?
The only gain from the rending that we know about was the ability to communicate in the way the Haruchai talk to themselves.

Wow, where's the "put foot in my mouth" Emoticon.

FR spoilers:

Spoiler

I just reread the FR part that says that they did in fact learn the Raver's

lore.
Sorry!

Hehe...I just thought you were holding a strict stance against mention of anything outside the 1st and 2nd Chrons in this forum.

Speaking within the Second Chronicles only, I had always assumed that Nom gained quite a bit from consuming the rent Raver, and that being able to communicate with the Haruchai was only just the tip of the iceberg.

Certainly the fact that Nom chose to build a cairn to honor Honninscrave was very non-Sandgorgonish. As was his desire to improve, on his own, the way the waters from Glimmermere flowed through Revelstone. And even his desire to free the other Sandgorgons seemed to me something that the old Nom would not have done - he would not have cared, I don't think.

I had always felt that old-Nom was basically a beast, and that new Nom was somehow more sentient.