Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:01 pm**

High Lord Tolkien wrote:What about a son?
The only reason i think it's possible is that SRD has already said that Foul can pass between worlds or influence others in the real world (Joan maybe Roger too?).
If Jeremiah was just a few years old at the beginning of the second Chronicles then he was born at roughly the time of the Sunbane's dominance.

I think what you're implying is "Rosemary's Baby" territory. Or to be more precise "Martha Jason's baby".
In Fatal Revenant is says that she had three children, Jeremiah being the eldest, before she even entered the Community of Retribution.

I don't even beleive Lord Foul has a nob. Aren't the Jeherrin proof of this - beings created in a vat or a kiln. If Foul does have a nob he has had thousands of years in which to create lots of "little Fouls", which would be far more dangerous and harmful to the Land than his Ravers could ever be.

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:10 pm**

Krazy Kat wrote: If Foul does have a nob he has had thousands of years in which to create lots of little Fouls, which would be far more dangerous and harmful to the Land than his Ravers ever could be.

But that would serve him no purpose in getting free from the Arch.
Foul doesn't care about the Land one way or another.
Never has.
Everything he's ever done was geared towards freedom.

Interesting point (no pun intended) about your comment regarding his "nob".
Kastenessen didn't have one either.
The Dancers of the Sea are only his children through theurgy or "magic" not actual intercourse with his female love. Same goes for how Esmer was created.

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:06 pm**

We know that Jeremiah was tormented by Foul at an early age. Sufficiently well that he willingly put his hand in a fire and left it there until it cooked. This, and the Mahdoubts suggestions, may lead us to believe that Jeremiah is now on Foul's side. But if he is, it's because he was warped at a young age. Linden must negotiate a torturous path as a result - leave him free to choose, even if he chooses Foul, or try to straighten him out, put him on a better life course.

We suspect that Jeremiah, like Joan, was somehow able to go to the Land for many years before he was summoned. We don't have this from anyone reliable. This makes Jeremiah and Joan somewhat unique, unless we find that Roger, too, had this ability. During this time he may have been molded by Lord Foul, until he has become Foul's voluntary servant.

We know that he has a condition that is distantly similar to autism. He cannot speak; he can only perform certain tasks. However, we know also that he can understand what he is told, at least to some degree. And the tasks he can perform are not trivial - he builds toys, and things with legos and racecartracks.

We know that he's possessed by a croyel. He may have entered this arrangement willingly. Largely, all of Jeremiah's actions have really been the croyel's actions. But it's an open question on whether or not these actions are in accordance with Jeremiah's wishes, or against them. There are no other instances of a croyel possessing someone against their wishes. They bargain. We can be sure that Jeremiah bargained. He bargained something away - the use of his powers. We don't know what he gets in return, unless it's the mere ability to merely act at all.

We know he has powers. He has used them. And others have attested that these powers are desirable. However, we have no idea how much of his powers are himself, and how much are the croyel. It may be that Jeremiah merely possesses a desire to build, which the croyel then has the lore to express. However, it is probably something much more than that, else he would not be desired for himself - they would just want the croyel.

We know one of his powers is the ability to transport people to a different place. And we know another is to build a specific kind of trap, one that Elohim can enter but not leave. These powers seem linked to the form of the structures he builds to use them. Things need to be placed a certain way. Things need to have a certain shape.

We know he has used other powers as well. Although these are more ambiguous as to whether they are really Jeremiah's abilities or croyel lore. He can defend himself with fire. He can push people away.

Posted: **Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:30 am**

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Seareach wrote:Well, I don't think Jeremiah is Foul. I don't think it fits into the timescale. If he's only 15 in Runes then that makes him non-existent in the first Chronicles.

What about a son?

Sorry HLT. I didn't see the "or son" bit in your original post. Yes, I agree that that is entirely possible.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I think the OP's question is a great one, because the answer is supposed to be a mystery at this point so that means SRD has done a good job of writing the character.

I actually don't think I said anywhere that HLT's question wasn't a "great one". I just said I disagreed.

Posted: **Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:16 am**

Seareach wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Seareach wrote:Well, I don't think Jeremiah is Foul. I don't think it fits into the timescale. If he's only 15 in Runes then that makes him non-existent in the first Chronicles.

What about a son?
Sorry HLT. I didn't see the "or son" bit in your original post. Yes, I agree that that is entirely possible.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I think the OP's question is a great one, because the answer is supposed to be a mystery at this point so that means SRD has done a good job of writing the character.
I actually don't think I said anywhere that HLT's question wasn't a "great one". I just said I disagreed.

I wasn't responding to anything you wrote, I just threw that out there.

Posted: **Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:51 pm**

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Krazy Kat wrote: If Foul does have a nob he has had thousands of years in which to create lots of little Fouls, which would be far more dangerous and harmful to the Land than his Ravers ever could be.

But that would serve him no purpose in getting free from the Arch.
Foul doesn't care about the Land one way or another.
Never has.
Everything he's ever done was geared towards freedom.

Interesting point (no pun intended) about your comment regarding his "nob".
Kastenessen didn't have one either.
The Dancers of the Sea are only his children through theurgy or "magic" not actual intercourse with his female love. Same goes for how Esmer was created.

There was something I didn't take into account regarding Lord Foul's nob: when Covenant defeats him in Ridjeck Thome by placing himself between the Despiser and the Illearth Stone, Lord Foul becomes physical, his true form.
So I guess it's possible he could have done the Rosemary's Baby thing on Martha Jason.

If Foul falls into the pattern of "sons", then weren't his sons the three Ravers, born of the lurker in the Great Swamp. I'm sure Esmer explains this to Linden just after her return from Glimmermere.

Posted: **Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:17 pm**

Krazy Kat wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Krazy Kat wrote: If Foul does have a nob he has had thousands of years in which to create lots of little Fouls, which would be far more dangerous and harmful to the Land than his Ravers ever could be.

But that would serve him no purpose in getting free from the Arch.
Foul doesn't care about the Land one way or another.
Never has.
Everything he's ever done was geared towards freedom.

Interesting point (no pun intended) about your comment regarding his "nob".
Kastenessen didn't have one either.
The Dancers of the Sea are only his children through theurgy or "magic" not actual intercourse with his female love. Same goes for how Esmer was created.
There was something I didn't take into account regarding Lord Foul's nob: when Covenant defeats him in Ridjeck Thome by placing himself between the Despiser and the Illearth Stone, Lord Foul becomes physical, his true form.
So I guess it's possible he could have done the Rosemary's Baby thing on Martha Jason.

If Foul falls into the pattern of "sons", then weren't his sons the three Ravers, born of the lurker in the Great Swamp. I'm sure Esmer explains this to Linden just after her return from Glimmermere.

You're right! He did say something about Foul taking notice of the evil in the Sarangrave and soon after the Ravers showed up.
But I don't like that idea because it doesn't go well with a Father/Son conflict.
They need to be opposites in the Chronicles.
That's the theme.
Of course, Foul being the Creator's son is a pretty interesting thought too.

Posted: **Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:29 pm**

High Lord Tolkien wrote: Same goes for how Esmer was created.

I think that Esmer was created in a similar way to the new Staff of Law.
Vain and Findail were merged together partly with the old heels and the wood of Vain's forearm, and of course with Wild Magic.
Esmer seems to be a merging of the Haruchai and the Elohim, but unlike the Staff of Law he is at complete odds, in total conflict, with his creation.
I think that Esmer is essentially Cail and the merewives transformed. This seems consistent with his "Aid and Betrayal". The Haruchai side of him giving aid, and the Elohim side of him giving betrayal. Cail was Linden's protector.

If Esmer is lying about not knowing Jeremiah's whereabouts then maybe this means Jeremiah is being held at the Worm of the World's End. And Esmer is the key to finding him. Perhaps through

Esmer ->

->merewives and Cail ->

->Brinn the Guardian of the One Tree ->

->the sunken Ilse ->

-> the Worm of the World's End.

I'm sure this has all been discussed elsewhere, I just haven't read much of the 3rd Chronicle threads.

Posted: **Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:13 pm**

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Of course, Foul being the Creator's son is a pretty interesting thought too.

Oh heck! I hadn't considered Foul being the son of...

This makes so much sense, especially as Lord Foul just doesn't scare me like he did back in 1979 when I first read the chronicles.
Covenant has beat him twice, and now the despiser is behaving like a spoiled brat. But if something more powerful, more evil, more capable of escaping the constraints of a book...

...yes, that is pretty interesting!

This could make the first chronicles look like a children's bedtime story!

Posted: **Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:18 am**

I haven't read the 3rd Chrons in a while - I'm just about to start a re-read of the whole thing in time for the next book..

But my question is did we have any parts of the 3rd Chrons from Jeremiah's perspective so far? If I remember correctly everyone else who is from Covenant's world had had some point - of - view text.. And all 'Land inhabitants' (excluding Gilden-Fire) have not..

And it seems he's ALWAYS been under Fouls' control.. His original family and parents seemed well committed to that cult whom it is apparent Foul had been influencing.. If he is an innocent, how has he been escaping Foul's influence? Also the Grey Slayer was IN that fire which bought about his autism (If memory serves) and it seems Foul could have taken him into the Land then and been able to control him..

Whatever the situation is, I'm loving the prospects that are going to be exciting us soon! Furthermore, I'm sure what Donaldson has planned is going to be even more extreme and significant that what we could imagine!

Posted: **Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:05 pm**

Maybe there is no point of view character, which would make the Fatal Revenant you, me, and anyone who reads the story.

Is there a point of view character, when Linden falls down a hole into the Lost Deep and talks to the worm? (man, that worm was Loud!)

mm...if so, then the pov is vaindail

edit: drat, way past my bedtime. See Ya!!!!

Posted: **Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:06 pm**

ninjaboy wrote:But my question is did we have any parts of the 3rd Chrons from Jeremiah's perspective so far? If I remember correctly everyone else who is from Covenant's world had had some point - of - view text.. And all 'Land inhabitants' (excluding Gilden-Fire) have not..

Nothing from Jeremiah, Roger, or Joan's POV that I can think of. Linden "sees" through Joan while in a caesure, but I don't think that counts. Hasn't it been all Linden's POV in the ROTE and FR?

The 1st Chrons featured chapters from Mhoram, Triock (the chapter where he goes to find the Unfettered), the Morinmoss Healer, and tangentially the Bloodguard Tull and Runnik. And of course Troy.

And in the 2nd I believe it's all TC and Linden. Was there anyone else as a POV character?

Posted: **Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:13 am**

Relayer wrote:And in the 2nd I believe it's all TC and Linden. Was there anyone else as a POV character?

An obvious one is, Lord Foul. He watches everything Linden does, from the opening of the Wounded Land, to, the end of White Gold Wielder.
Then there was all that possession thing going on in Mt.Thunder as tc and la approach Foul's cave.

On an different note, as a writer Stephen Donaldson surely re-writes scenes from all viewpoints, even if one of the characters only has a walk on part. Linden Avery just happens to be the...?

Posted: **Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:43 am**

Relayer wrote:And in the 2nd I believe it's all TC and Linden. Was there anyone else as a POV character?

Lady Alif got a half a chapter, I think. Kasreyn a little bit, as well. I think that there were some more, but they were brief.

Posted: **Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:25 am**

Wayfriend wrote:Lady Alif got a half a chapter, I think. Kasreyn a little bit, as well. I think that there were some more, but they were brief.

Really? I don't remember those. (I mean I don't remember whose POV they were). They weren't from catatonic Covenants' POV? Must. Reread.

Posted: **Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:16 pm**

I started reading the First Chronicles not too long ago and it struck me that there may be a chance that Jeremiah was the kid the 'man in the Ochre robe' instructed to give the note to Covenant before TC's first visit to the land.. A wild and crazy notion, i know.. but what could it mean?

As for the 'Real World' characters Roger, Joan and Jeremiah.. Roger has done something where he now wields Kastenessen's theurgy, yeah? Joan is under the control of a Raver and Jeremiah has been 'croyelified'.. Either war if they aren't under Foul's direct control they all seem to have been compromised in some fashion..

I wonder if Jeremiah had been in some sort of deal with the Croyel ever since his first visit to the land..

Posted: **Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:37 pm**

ninjaboy wrote:I started reading the First Chronicles not too long ago and it struck me that there may be a chance that Jeremiah was the kid the 'man in the Ochre robe' instructed to give the note to Covenant before TC's first visit to the land.. A wild and crazy notion, i know.. but what could it mean?

Sorry, but Jeremiah wasn't even born yet.

Posted: **Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:34 pm**

That reminds me: is it possible that the little girl Covenant saved from the rattlesnake in TPTP grew up to be Sandy Eastwood, Jeremiah's babysitter? This idea just popped into my head one day. There's no support for it at all, except that both girls lived in the same town and were born around the same time. And there's a sort of ironic symmetry in the idea that she was murdered by the son of her saviour...

Posted: **Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:59 pm**

I don't know about that, but I have wondered what became of that girl. I wondered in particular if she had gotten leprosy from Covenant's attempts to suck the poison from her leg (since I think his lip was bleeding at the time).

Posted: **Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:37 pm**

lucimay wrote:frankly, i got no clue. seems like SRD writes stuff in fits of inspiration and then later has to tap dance his ass off to explain. but that's just my perception.

Kevin's Watch

Jeremiah. What the heck is he?