Kevin's Watch

wayfriend wrote:

In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:After a moment, Atiaran replied, "Sacred? I know that word, but its meaning is obscure to me. There is Power in the Earth, in trees and rivers and soil and stone, and we respect it for the life it gives. So we have sworn the Oath of Peace. Is that what you ask?"

Certainly, as the above passage shows, you need to be careful to view the entire story before you come to any opinions about the spirituality of the Land. Never mind going from there to judging the spirituality of the author.

Further, the author is human, and makes simple mistakes. Later, in describing vespers, he describes it as a "sacred enclosure". I tend to believe Atiaran's statement is more intentional, and hence more authoritative, while the latter seems more like an inconsistency due to an oversight.

That's not an inconsistency since Mhoram, not Atiaran, described the Vespers as a sacred enclosure. Does Atiaran speak for a Lord's knowledge, or only for herself and her stonedown?

Atiaran doesn't know the word "sacred." And Mhoram (I think) doesn't know the word "scenery." This element of the story becomes rather tropish.

However, Foamfollower and the Giants know the word "sacred," it forms part of the Song of the Unhomed.

Vraith wrote:I think [agreeing with some of what Rus said] that there definitely intentional spirituality, and goodness, and such...but also with Worm that it's a mistake to make too literal a connection between the story's and SRD's.

Thanks, and I also think that SRD uses this spirituality to point out that it leads to error, even desecration. So I hardly think Donaldson would be using his own work to tacitly criticize his own "spiritual" attitude.

By the same token, I think Donaldson is too hard on spirituality, in that he practically equates it with negatives such as narcissism and fanaticism (e.g., Kevin, the Haruchai, or even Hile Troy).

Vraith wrote:I think the most important way it adds to the background/feel of the story is that, for TC [and for us peeps in real real world] it takes a certain mindset/openness/mood/searching/intention to experience spirituality, see it in the world. But for the people of the Land, the essence of it is right there in front of their eyes every minute...the only way they CAN'T experience it is if something gets in the way.
In some ways that overlaps with the "externalizing the internal" idea on fantasy...but that isn't all there is to it.

How Kantian in a way. Consider his practical philosophy and the view that
the supernatural realm must always remain concealed from view otherwise it would force itself upon our wills, making morality impossible to achieve. Certainly if God Himself stood before humanity and showed us Heaven and Hell there would be a lot of repenting going on. That is, as you described it, the very essence of most religion.

The people of the Land, however, are living it, they have no need to achieve anything. Atiaran has no need of concepts such as "sacred," the essence of sacredness is in the very air she breathes. Perhaps the Land is Covenant's personal idea of Heaven.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:That's not an inconsistency since Mhoram, not Atiaran, described the Vespers as a sacred enclosure.

I agree you can view it that way. I view it this way: Atiaran's comment was intended to be representative of people in the Land, and convey that people use the word "sacred" so infrequently that they hardly know what it means, which in turn implies that they they don't generally have anything that they view as something which is taboo or forbidden or held in special reverence for religious reasons. Hence, the use of "sacred enclosure" later is somewhat contradictory, as it seems like the common term for the chamber, and hence anyone who had been in Revelstone would have called it that, hence it would not be unfamiliar.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Atiaran doesn't know the word "sacred." And Mhoram (I think) doesn't know the word "scenery." This element of the story becomes rather tropish.

A frequently used device anyway. I think that those are moments that are supposed to convey how the people of the Land think. People who don't know a word don't know a concept.

Which is why I think it is somewhat of an oversight when they use those very words. It's like Donaldson chose the word that best fit, but then forgot that he made a big point at another time about not knowing the word. (It may have happend during revising. And there was no "search" button on the typewriter.)

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:However, Foamfollower and the Giants know the word "sacred," it forms part of the Song of the Unhomed.

Interesting, I did not notice that.

Quick question - can anyone remember if the term 'vespers' is used in the text of the chapter at all, and more particularly if it is spoken by any of the charachters as actually being the name of thier evening 'ceromony' of thanks and discussion. If not and it is only in the chapter title itself that SRD uses the word, then is it not a legitimate 'trick' to get ones readers into a receptive frame of mind for the scene one is about to weave in words. ie to generate empathy in the readers for the feel of the scene before they even start to read it.
I have a sympathy with the author of Worm of the Worlds End's quote in that, had I known of the origins of many of Donaldsons names (Elohim, Samedhi etc.) at the time of first reading I think it would have been a distraction to me and could well have reduced my reading pleasure at least a little.

I think Mhoram uses it, but I'll have to verify that...

High Lord Prothall:

"This is the Vespers of Lord's Keep - ancient Revelstone, Giant-wrought bourne of all that we believe. Be welcome, strong heart and weak, light and dark, blood and bone and thew and mind and soul, for good and all. Set Peace about you and within you. This time is consecrate to the services of the Earth."

If these services use esoteric knowledge, then the people of the Land would not know the concepts. But we don't know if it's esoterica.

When I first read these books I remember thinking there was something oddly out of place about some of the words.

wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:That's not an inconsistency since Mhoram, not Atiaran, described the Vespers as a sacred enclosure.

I agree you can view it that way. I view it this way: Atiaran's comment was intended to be representative of people in the Land, and convey that people use the word "sacred" so infrequently that they hardly know what it means, which in turn implies that they they don't generally have anything that they view as something which is taboo or forbidden or held in special reverence for religious reasons. Hence, the use of "sacred enclosure" later is somewhat contradictory, as it seems like the common term for the chamber, and hence anyone who had been in Revelstone would have called it that, hence it would not be unfamiliar.

Revelstone is a long walk to the people of Mithil Stonedown. I'm guessing that Atiarian would not have known what "Vespers" means.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Revelstone is a long walk to the people of Mithil Stonedown. I'm guessing that Atiarian would not have known what "Vespers" means.

Oh, she walked.

In [u]Lord Foul's Bane[/u] was wrote:But Atiaran my mother alone has been to the Loresraat."

... and the Loresraat in those days was in Revelstone; it was not moved to Revelwood until Osondrea was High Lord, succeeding Prothall.

wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Revelstone is a long walk to the people of Mithil Stonedown. I'm guessing that Atiarian would not have known what "Vespers" means.

Oh, she walked.

In [u]Lord Foul's Bane[/u] was wrote:But Atiaran my mother alone has been to the Loresraat."

... and the Loresraat in those days was in Revelstone; it was not moved to Revelwood until Osondrea was High Lord, succeeding Prothall.

Then Atiaran lied about not knowing what "sacred" means. Or maybe she was just trying to prove a point?

Atiaran:

"Sacred? I know that word, but its meaning is obscure to me. There is Power in the Earth, in trees and rivers and soil and stone, and we respect it for the life it gives. So we have sworn the Oath of Peace. Is that what you ask?"

Does she mean the word is "obscure" in the context of trees? She seems to know that it has to do with respect. And she vaguely connects it with the Oath.

Nobody wants to reply? I'll just respond to myself then and say that Atiaran's "respect" is too weak a word, it sounds like something a modern-day hunter or fisherman would say.
The correct word would be "reverence."

I think Atiaran knew what Covenant meant in part because of the context of the question he asked. He was asking why people don't burn or destroy wood, and wanted to know if it had something to do with how people think about trees.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If these services use esoteric knowledge, then the people of the Land would not know the concepts. But we don't know if it's esoterica.

Sorry WOTWE, I am not following you on this. If you mean eoteric in the sense of knowledge restricted to a limited number of initiates, then what concepts would the people not be aware of. I remember nothing in the 'vespers ceremony' that was in any sense hidden from the people as a whole - in fact nothing that I could regard as esoteric in the normal use of the word. On the contrary the 'service was IIRC, a demonstation of unity and reverence of the people as a whole for the Land they loved so well.

wayfriend wrote:I think Atiaran knew what Covenant meant in part because of the context of the question he asked. He was asking why people don't burn or destroy wood, and wanted to know if it had something to do with how people think about trees.

I think this scene is one of those moments where, upon re-reading his own works, Donaldson was left feeling either boredom or regret.

peter wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If these services use esoteric knowledge, then the people of the Land would not know the concepts. But we don't know if it's esoterica.

Sorry WOTWE, I am not following you on this. If you mean eoteric in the sense of knowledge restricted to a limited number of initiates, then what concepts would the people not be aware of. I remember nothing in the 'vespers ceremony' that was in any sense hidden from the people as a whole - in fact nothing that I could regard as esoteric in the normal use of the word. On the contrary the 'service was IIRC, a demonstation of unity and reverence of the people as a whole for the Land they loved so well.

Then Atiaran should have said "yes, trees are sacred to the people of the Land." What's so mysterious about the word "sacred"? It's not as if Covenant asked her about the possible effects of Round-up on their trees, or if they have problems with borers, leaf fungus and tussock moths.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

peter wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If these services use esoteric knowledge, then the people of the Land would not know the concepts. But we don't know if it's esoterica.

Sorry WOTWE, I am not following you on this. If you mean eoteric in the sense of knowledge restricted to a limited number of initiates, then what concepts would the people not be aware of. I remember nothing in the 'vespers ceremony' that was in any sense hidden from the people as a whole - in fact nothing that I could regard as esoteric in the normal use of the word. On the contrary the 'service was IIRC, a demonstation of unity and reverence of the people as a whole for the Land they loved so well.

Then Atiaran should have said "yes, trees are sacred to the people of the Land." What's so mysterious about the word "sacred"? It's not as if Covenant asked her about the possible effects of Round-up on their trees, or if they have problems with borers, leaf fungus and tussock moths.

Here, I think we have a difference between dogmatic devotion and love for a thing. Atiaran, whose concepts of the Land were founded on love for the Land and not dogmatic devotion, had trouble with the term 'sacred' as a result. This trouble with such concepts as "sacred" may have affected her success at the Lorestrat, since a lot of the lore and commitment to it were based on this idea that Kevin's Wards were placed on a pedestal, or were sacred. Atiaran could not fundamentally get into it as a result, and could only understand service in love and the mundane stories.

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

peter wrote: Sorry WOTWE, I am not following you on this. If you mean eoteric in the sense of knowledge restricted to a limited number of initiates, then what concepts would the people not be aware of. I remember nothing in the 'vespers ceremony' that was in any sense hidden from the people as a whole - in fact nothing that I could regard as esoteric in the normal use of the word. On the contrary the 'service was IIRC, a demonstation of unity and reverence of the people as a whole for the Land they loved so well.

Then Atiaran should have said "yes, trees are sacred to the people of the Land." What's so mysterious about the word "sacred"? It's not as if Covenant asked her about the possible effects of Round-up on their trees, or if they have problems with borers, leaf fungus and tussock moths.

Here, I think we have a difference between dogmatic devotion and love for a thing. Atiaran, whose concepts of the Land were founded on love for the Land and not dogmatic devotion, had trouble with the term 'sacred' as a result. This trouble with such concepts as "sacred" may have affected her success at the Lorestrat, since a lot of the lore and commitment to it were based on this idea that Kevin's Wards were placed on a pedestal, or were sacred. Atiaran could not fundamentally get into it as a result, and could only understand service in love and the mundane stories.

Or it could be as Wayfriend stated: its an inconsistency.

OR it could be a couple other things. First, it might be obscure to her because she cannot "read" Covenant. If she could, she could have answered
"yes" "no" or "not quite the way you mean it." And it think the third would have been the answer:
Because the simple fact of the matter is that spirituality and sacredness and such in the Land are all experienced from the ground up, not dictated from God down.

I think that Donaldson was working from the premise that, if people in the Land don't have an organized religion to worship a god, then they would not have a concept of sacred. Sacred means holy, or something dedicated or set apart for the worship of a deity.

The interaction with Atiaran was meant to convey this. That's how I see it.

Then comes Vespers. The people go to a "sacred" enclosure. As I said, I think that Donaldson chose a word here without cognizance of his earlier passage. Or perhaps the Atiaran passage was the one added in a later revision, without cognizance of the Vespers chapter. The latter seems more likely.

What also seems odd is the use of "sacred" in this context at all. I think Donaldson wanted to get across that the enclosure was related to being dedicated to the Land, and that it was a revered room. However, it's not in any sense holy, although that's what sacred means. (Sacred has come to mean merely "important" or "untouchable" as well, but I don't think that applies here.)

Donaldson similarly uses words like "chrism" (consecrated baptism oil) and other religious terms. I think he chooses them for imagery and subtle connotation, not literal meaning. However, in this case, his character uses the word 'sacred', which is odd, but otherwise seems to be of a kind.

Vraith wrote:Because the simple fact of the matter is that spirituality and sacredness and such in the Land are all experienced from the ground up, not dictated from God down.

This I think, gets to the heart of the matter in respect of Atiarens problem with the concept of spiriuality (if she truly had one and it was just a) not a case of her not being able to read Covenant or b) simple deciet - which idea makes me recoil in horror). But I'm afraid the simple authorial inconsistency idea has merits too - not that I'm fence sitting here or anything