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Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:41 pm
by Hashi Lebwohl
All these names he has are just ways for other people to refer to him, either when talking to him or about him. His servants simply refer to him as "Master" or some other honorific.
If he decided to tell us, on a whim, then we might discover that he doesn't even have a name for himself. Names are, after all, only labels so that other people may conveniently refer to someone else and don't define what or who we are.
Use of the honorific "lord" is a method by which he tries to command respect from the humans of the Land. It is, though, essentially meaningless--anyone can call themselves "Lord whatever" but that doesn't mean that they really are.
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:12 am
by Horrim Carabal
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:All these names he has are just ways for other people to refer to him, either when talking to him or about him. His servants simply refer to him as "Master" or some other honorific.
If he decided to tell us, on a whim, then we might discover that he doesn't even have a name for himself. Names are, after all, only labels so that other people may conveniently refer to someone else and don't define what or who we are.
Use of the honorific "lord" is a method by which he tries to command respect from the humans of the Land. It is, though, essentially meaningless--anyone can call themselves "Lord whatever" but that doesn't mean that they really are.
I have to disagree with you on both points.
Firstly, "a-Jeroth" seems to be a name that he calls himself either when attempting to infiltrate a group (the Lords) or when fabricating a mythology (for the Clave). The fact that he used the same name in both instances, separated by multiple millenia, seems to be an indication that it might be his real name.
Secondly, I think there is enough evidence to assume that he is called "Lord" because he actually was a Lord of the Council. There is, as I recall, no evidence anyone called him "Lord Foul" until after his betrayal of the Lords and therefore after he had been on the council.
I assume they called him "Lord Foul" to indicate that a) he was a Lord and b) he committed foul acts (of betrayal).
Such a title would have amused a-Jeroth to no end, so why not adopt it? I speculate that is also the case for "the Despiser".
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:09 pm
by Hashi Lebwohl
It never upsets me for people to disagree with me.
I agree that he does use a-Jeroth a lot even though I don't recall seeing that name anywhere in the First Chronicles (but I would have to re-read them to verify this). The reason I am of the opinion that he doesn't have a name is because he is not so much a sentient being as he is a "force of nature" and/or the embodiment of self-hate. Quasi-mythological beings like this normally don't have names inherent to themsleves, only names by which other people refer to them. *shrug*
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:38 pm
by rdhopeca
has Lord Foul ever actually said "my name is such and such"? he only ever refers to "Despite such as mine" and so forth...I think a-Jeroth is just another legend, like Fangthane, or Corruption...and not necessarily his "real" name...
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:20 pm
by thewormoftheworld'send
rdhopeca wrote:has Lord Foul ever actually said "my name is such and such"? he only ever refers to "Despite such as mine" and so forth...I think a-Jeroth is just another legend, like Fangthane, or Corruption...and not necessarily his "real" name...
Knowing Foul's true name probably gives power over him. This trope may be an important theme eventually, even though no clue to this has been mentioned yet. But you never know about Donaldson, he has a way of... introducing new things unexpectedly.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:58 am
by sindatur
I've always viewed as Lord Foul as Non-corporeal or at least disembodied, not totally solid, opaque.
It's always been jarring accepting a Lord sitting beside Kevin on the Council
I also have a recollection (perhaps tainted by supposition) that Kevin knew him as A-Jeroth. And isn't it a Lore-Wise being that refers to him as A-Jeroth later (I don't recall who it was)?
So, I believe that A-Jeroth is the closest we'll ever get to a true Name, though, Corruption seems as "True" a name as we'll get for him, in a "TRUE" Name sense, if we went down that road.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:04 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
sindatur wrote:I've always viewed as Lord Foul as Non-corporeal or at least disembodied, not totally solid, opaque.
It's always been jarring accepting a Lord sitting beside Kevin on the Council
I also have a recollection (perhaps tainted by supposition) that Kevin knew him as A-Jeroth. And isn't it a Lore-Wise being that refers to him as A-Jeroth later (I don't recall who it was)?
So, I believe that A-Jeroth is the closest we'll ever get to a true Name, though, Corruption seems as "True" a name as we'll get for him, in a "TRUE" Name sense, if we went down that road.
We'll see about the "true name" issue. I can't discuss that any further on this forum.
A-Jeroth was a name appearing in a song in TIW. The Sunbane was supposedly his punishment for the people of the Land being wicked. The Clave was there supposedly to eradicate the Sunbane through human sacrifice. Riders would travel around the Land as if they were tax collectors collecting lives instead of money. Haruchai blood was particularly valuable.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:25 am
by Horrim Carabal
rdhopeca wrote:has Lord Foul ever actually said "my name is such and such"? he only ever refers to "Despite such as mine" and so forth...I think a-Jeroth is just another legend, like Fangthane, or Corruption...and not necessarily his "real" name...
The difference is that Fangthane and Corruption (and other such names, like Gray Slayer) are titles that the Land's peoples have given him.
Foul calls *himself* a-Jeroth. I'd say that's significant.
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Knowing Foul's true name probably gives power over him. This trope may be an important theme eventually, even though no clue to this has been mentioned yet. But you never know about Donaldson, he has a way of... introducing new things unexpectedly.
I think that "True Name" stuff only applies to Earthpowerful beings
or Insequent
, i.e. natives of the Earth.
Example: Thomas Covenant's true name gives no one power over him. Same with Foul I'd expect.
sindatur wrote:I've always viewed as Lord Foul as Non-corporeal or at least disembodied, not totally solid, opaque. It's always been jarring accepting a Lord sitting beside Kevin on the Council
Nevertheless the text is pretty clear that Foul sat on the Council for a significant time, perhaps years. And SRD himself has said he was a-Jeroth then (in the GI). The fact that no one ever noticed their fellow Lord was an immortal, extra-temporal, achetypical manifestation of pure evil means his disguise must have been perfect.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Foul has manifested in corporeal form at other times, such as during the confrontation with TC in Foul's Creche at the end of TPTP.
sindatur wrote:I also have a recollection (perhaps tainted by supposition) that Kevin knew him as A-Jeroth.
Yes, he did.
sindatur wrote: And isn't it a Lore-Wise being that refers to him as A-Jeroth later (I don't recall who it was)?
Gibbon Raver?
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:34 am
by rdhopeca
as far as I know lord foul never referred to himself by any name, and certainly never called himself a-jeroth. That comes from the song made up by the clave
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:37 am
by Horrim Carabal
[dupe]
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:38 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
Horrim Carabal wrote:rdhopeca wrote:has Lord Foul ever actually said "my name is such and such"? he only ever refers to "Despite such as mine" and so forth...I think a-Jeroth is just another legend, like Fangthane, or Corruption...and not necessarily his "real" name...
The difference is that Fangthane and Corruption (and other such names, like Gray Slayer) are titles that the Land's peoples have given him.
Foul calls *himself* a-Jeroth. I'd say that's significant.
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Knowing Foul's true name probably gives power over him. This trope may be an important theme eventually, even though no clue to this has been mentioned yet. But you never know about Donaldson, he has a way of... introducing new things unexpectedly.
I think that "True Name" stuff only applies to Earthpowerful beings or Insequent, i.e. natives of the Earth.
Example: Thomas Covenant's true name gives no one power over him. Same with Foul I'd expect.
I don't know where Foul called himself a-Jeroth. And there is ample evidence that non-natives of the Earth, that is, supernatural beings, have "true names."
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:56 am
by Horrim Carabal
rdhopeca wrote:as far as I know lord foul never referred to himself by any name, and certainly never called himself a-jeroth. That comes from the song made up by the clave
I'll have to search the GI when I get time, but I'm positive SRD has said that Foul called himself a-Jeroth when he was on the Council.
aha!
www.stephenrdonaldson.com/fromtheauthor ... roth&none=
and
www.stephenrdonaldson.com/fromtheauthor ... roth&none=
That should pretty well prove it. Foul called himself a-Jeroth, and to SRD this "sounds" right as Foul's true name, or as close to one as he has.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:05 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
[/quote]
Could be, and Lord Foul was a name that came later. The name a-Jeroth does not appear until TIW and only in the context of the Clave's falsehoods. Perhaps that name was the only true part of the tale.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:13 am
by Horrim Carabal
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Could be, and Lord Foul was a name that came later. The name a-Jeroth does not appear until TIW and only in the context of the Clave's falsehoods. Perhaps that name was the only true part of the tale.
Yes that's what I think as well.
Funny, because back in April 2006 I asked him a very similar Q on the GI, but SRD was less forthcoming back then!
www.stephenrdonaldson.com/fromtheauthor ... any=&none=
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:22 am
by thewormoftheworld'send
Horrim Carabal wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Could be, and Lord Foul was a name that came later. The name a-Jeroth does not appear until TIW and only in the context of the Clave's falsehoods. Perhaps that name was the only true part of the tale.
Yes that's what I think as well.
Funny, because back in April 2006 I asked him a very similar Q on the GI, but SRD was less forthcoming back then!
www.stephenrdonaldson.com/fromtheauthor ... any=&none=
His answer sounds suspiciously like he didn't want to admit that coming up with an Old Lord moniker for Foul wasn't relevant to the text so he didn't create one.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:27 pm
by Orlion
Lord Foul identified himself as such along with a host of other names when he gave TC his message to the Lords of Revelstone in LFB.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:30 pm
by thewormoftheworld'send
Orlion wrote:Lord Foul identified himself as such along with a host of other names when he gave TC his message to the Lords of Revelstone in LFB.
Nah!
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:32 pm
by Orlion
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Orlion wrote:Lord Foul identified himself as such along with a host of other names when he gave TC his message to the Lords of Revelstone in LFB.
Nah!
Actually...as I think about it, he may not have directly done such... I need to check my book!
Re: Lord Foul
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:07 pm
by thewormoftheworld'send
hyarmion wrote:I am sure this would have been discussed before, but I am mystified by the Despiser’s use of the name “Lord Foul”. His name was not actually “Foul”. He apparently used the name a-Jeroth whilst he sat on Kevin’s Council. So he would have been Lord a-Jeroth (or maybe just Lord Jeroth, as fan fiction has proposed).
I can understand that after the betrayal at Treacher’s Gorge Kevin may well have thrown the epithet “Foul” at the Despiser, but would he ever have been “Lord Foul”? Surely after Treacher’s Gorge, Kevin’s first act would have been to expel a-Jeroth from the Council (assuming of course that there was a mechanism by which a Lord could be expelled from the Council).
Of course, the Despiser might have, for his own amusement, continued to consider himself a member of the Council and continued to claim the title “Lord”. But surely he would have done so as Lord a-Jeroth. Yet when we first meet him in the First Chronicles, he introduces himself as “Lord Foul the Despiser.”
Any thoughts, anyone?
Having looked into this now, I see a bit of retconning on Donaldson's part. Because nowhere in the 1st or 2nd Chrons is Foul referred to as a-Jeroth except in a Clave fable.
However, FR "reveals" that Kevin knew him as a-Jeroth. And it appears that the Mahdoubt only refers to Foul as a-Jeroth.
Despite this, the Chrons glossary still defines that name as a "Clave-name for Lord Foul the Despiser" all the way up to AATE.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:15 pm
by Orlion
Hmmm... I thought we knew about Foul's Council identity since at least the Second Chronicles...