Kevin's Watch

dlbpharmd wrote:I don't like them.

Well, it's really not that I don't LIKE them. It's just that they're boring and there are too many of them. I can't keep them straight.

I loved Foamfollower in 1st chronicles. I've said many times over the years that he's one of the best characters in fantasy.

I loved the Giants in 2nd Chronicles. They were so well written, and had such great names (Seadreamer, Honninscrave, Pitchwife.)

Now, we have all these Swordmannir, and I can't keep up. They all sound the same to me. I can't tell any difference in who they are. Coldspray is the Ironhand. That's all I got.

To me, they are now caricatures. I mean, one decent suggestion by Marthiir and we get two paragraphs of them going on and on about how awesome he is...ad nauseum. Giants aren't exactly hard to please, but come on. This happens over and over again. I'm desensitized to their nature a quarter of the way into the book. Their kindness doesn't move me during the crucial times that it should.

Very disappointing, as I thought they'd really help get my emotions balanced across the characters.

Lord Zombiac wrote:Still, I think the whole concept of an evil, bloodthirsty giant is quite thrilling! A great departure.

Not at all a departure, really. You're forgetting TIW, what with Satansfist, Kinslaughterer and Fleshharrower - okay sure, they were really the Ravers, but Longwrath is equally possessed by something, and far more to the point the source of his madness is not at all clear... he's driven by motives that are completely obscured at the moment. On that basis, I would absolutely NOT pass judgement on him yet as being "evil" or "bloodthirsty" - yes, his attempted actions would superficially seem that way, but I'm more than certain that there's way WAY more to it and indeed him than that. I think that Longwrath is going to have a fairly pivotal role to play in TLD - as are the Sandgorgons, but that's another topic.

SRD excels at depicting the conflicted - cf. Esmer, Anele etc etc - so I am more than sure that Longwrath is in no way just a simple "black hat". Putting him to the sword would therefore be a huge mistake and might well damn the Land.

To draw a parallel here, imagine if Gollum *had* been killed (by Frodo or Sam, can't remember which one had "pity stay his hand") on the journey into Mordor... that'd have led to Sauron entirely triumphing. And I feel that Longwrath is a lot more complex and conflicted than Gollum...

Plus of course it would be entirely "ungiantish" to execute Longwrath, and it's very fair for us to presume that the LC giants, no matter how two-dimensionally and sketchily characterized, still absolutely retain an essentially giantish nature.

Now another thing about Longwrath is this:

My favorite TV show as a child was "Lost in Space," and my favorite character on that show was Dr. Smith.

Both Dr. Smith and Longwrath ellicit the same response in me:

"Why don't they just kill him?"
[/quote]

Alright, before commenting on the topic, I'll just say that I find Lord Zombiac's recollection of having Dr. Smith as a favorite character "yet constantly wondering why they don't kill him" a bit disturbing (in a "why does my pet hamster keep getting blue when I plug its nostrils" kind of way ). and then again, completely normal in the sense that this is what generates creative tension in a story. Why did supposed genious Will Robinson never learn and instead kept insisting on listening to him, being nice to him, and treating him like a human being?

Now on to the Swordmainir. I've only read as far as FR, but so far for me the flatness (almost like a pack of sled dogs) of the giants makes sense for a couple of reasons:

i) Coldspray does seem to treat them a bit as expendable pawns, and dramatically this is bound to generate a "burden of command" for her. They pay the cost of her command decisions.

ii) For the rest of the Swordmainir, it is a bit like being the rest of the sled dogs following the pack leader, only they are all tied together with a rabid dog that wants to bite the sled driver. This generates tension for the whole party, which alternates or combines with the periodic attacks and the whole "keeping Anele off the ground" connundrum.

iii) Finally, on a POV angle, I at times try to wonder from the outlook of giant culture, so rooted in rich relationships and the sharing of long stories, what it must be like to run into and hurriedly team up with a bunch of total strangers (Linden's party in the Last Chron., the One Tree searchers in the Second Chron). I reckon the experience to them must feel extremely two dimensional, exactly like what everyone seems to be complaining about on this thread. This may not be SRD's intention, but for me it provides a good mirror image of what an ordinary giant's POV might be, and allows me to value their loyalty and sacrifice for the sake of these strangers they have barely come to know.

Im struggling with all of the characters really, its like theres a representative of all the races but they have no purpose for being there other than to create a fellowship for Linden to ignore or follow her around or die unexpectedly and inconsequentially ala Anele and Liand? Maybe there are too many parties involved or the plots unfolding in TLD will require all these to be present but the LC to me feels like the races that have impact and are essential are the insequent and elohim. As the powers are upscaling because of the epic consequences then the little races APPEAR less relevant and have no real impact.

Lord Zombiac wrote: As the their names: I hate "Coldspray," mostly because it keeps reminding me of that annoying band, "Coldplay."

Amen, brother! My mind sees it that way every time, and it takes me out of the story for just a moment. Damned pop-culture literacy.

As for the Giants, they had always been so cheering in the previous two chronicles. I haven't had that feeling this time until this third book. As someone pointed out, Grueburn finally started displaying some of the Giantish whimsy that I so love, and that has really helped. The rest are, in all honesty, cannon fodder and substitute horses thus far.

ninjaboy wrote:Now in the 3rd Chrons they are all pretty much interchangable, as apart from Longwrath and Coldspray they serve the same purpose. I honestly don't even know how many of them there are anymore.. And I surmise that the reason we had as many as we did is so that TC, LA, Liand, Mahrtiir, Anele, Pahni and Bhapa would all have a 'ride' should the occasion demand.. - whilst keeping Longwrath out of LA's way. And as such I wouldn't be surprised if we lost a few of their number shortly into TLD as there are fewer people for them to carry.

The Giants reduced to pack animals...Foul must be loving that!!

Seriously though, I have to agree with the general thrust of this thread and feel that, Longwrath aside, they serve a very basic and transparent purpose - providing muscle for those of lesser physical stature.

I must trust SRD to redeem them when Longwrath's fate plays out.

I agree, that it is a shame that we aren't getting to know the Giants very well.

-BUT-

Donaldson has said, that these Chronicles are the most difficult stories he has written, and I can understand why.

It has to do with the time-line.

In the First Chronicles, we only ever meet one (Non-Raver) Giant. (Okay, we briefly meet Sparlimb Keelsetter, but he only alive for about a paragraph or two)
But the time Covenant Spends with Foamfollower, they got to know each other very well. The short time they spent together going up-river, they were alone. And they weren't being attacked by anyone, other than some rapids. Then they spend days traveling to Mount Thunder on foot.
In the Power that Preserves, again, they spend a lot of time close to each other, doing a fair bit of just walking.
In the One Tree, Covenant and Linden spend weeks (months?) cooped up with the Giants on their Drommond.
Of course they (and then as the readers, 'we') got to know the various giants intimately.

Against All Things Ending, takes Less time than Covenant's and Foamfollwer's first trip up the Soulsease river.
How long has it been since we've met the giants in Fatal Revenant until the end of AATE? A week? And in that week, a lot of stuff went down.

Lets also remember that Linden is not a good frame of mind right now; how many forces on the Earth are trying to kill her, or at least stop her. Including one of the Giants! FOUR of her traveling companions (Esmer and the Humbled) kept trying to do whatever they could to stop her from her actions. That would make it difficult for her to get to know the newly met Giants.
And then Covenant; well, he's not really in a good state of mind. He gets confused and stares off into space and time half the time. He hasn't been a human in over three thousand years; its probably not that easy for him to get to know personally all of the people he is traveling with. Especially in that short of a time.

Covenant and Linden being the only POV characters makes them the only way for us, the readers, to get to know any other characters.

I can see why Donaldson has said that these are difficult to write! He probably DOES know all about these Giants, but he can't just start talking about things like 'Typical Coldspray Behavior' ; because our POV characters, haven't had the opportunity, nor the time to know what that would be.

If he did have Linden, or Covenant know everything about these Giants so far; that would be Poor Writing as far as I am concerned.

drew wrote:I agree, that it is a shame that we aren't getting to know the Giants very well.

-BUT-

Donaldson has said, that these Chronicles are the most difficult stories he has written, and I can understand why.

It has to do with the time-line.

In the First Chronicles, we only ever meet one (Non-Raver) Giant. (Okay, we briefly meet Sparlimb Keelsetter, but he only alive for about a paragraph or two)
But the time Covenant Spends with Foamfollower, they got to know each other very well. The short time they spent together going up-river, they were alone. And they weren't being attacked by anyone, other than some rapids. Then they spend days traveling to Mount Thunder on foot.
In the Power that Preserves, again, they spend a lot of time close to each other, doing a fair bit of just walking.
In the One Tree, Covenant and Linden spend weeks (months?) cooped up with the Giants on their Drommond.
Of course they (and then as the readers, 'we') got to know the various giants intimately.

Against All Things Ending, takes Less time than Covenant's and Foamfollwer's first trip up the Soulsease river.
How long has it been since we've met the giants in Fatal Revenant until the end of AATE? A week? And in that week, a lot of stuff went down.

Lets also remember that Linden is not a good frame of mind right now; how many forces on the Earth are trying to kill her, or at least stop her. Including one of the Giants! FOUR of her traveling companions (Esmer and the Humbled) kept trying to do whatever they could to stop her from her actions. That would make it difficult for her to get to know the newly met Giants.
And then Covenant; well, he's not really in a good state of mind. He gets confused and stares off into space and time half the time. He hasn't been a human in over three thousand years; its probably not that easy for him to get to know personally all of the people he is traveling with. Especially in that short of a time.

Covenant and Linden being the only POV characters makes them the only way for us, the readers, to get to know any other characters.

I can see why Donaldson has said that these are difficult to write! He probably DOES know all about these Giants, but he can't just start talking about things like 'Typical Coldspray Behavior' ; because our POV characters, haven't had the opportunity, nor the time to know what that would be.

If he did have Linden, or Covenant know everything about these Giants so far; that would be Poor Writing as far as I am concerned.

Do you think the story needed to told this way? Maybe you're right but Donaldson is the one after all who decided where his story was going and how. I think the story would have been better with fewer enemies for example.

Don't get me wrong. While I didn't like RotE too much (except the real world part) I thought Fatal Revenant was superb and AatE good as well.

first of all let me say that the Giants are some of my favorite characters in the 3 trilogies, Foamfollower, PW, the First, Seadreamer, Honninscrave etal were so beautifully developed, such full and unique characters that i literally cheered for their successes and rooted for their parts in the story.

I too think that the sheer number of giants is daunting and we have not been able to see the individuals, I think that is for several reasons, they are all swordmainnir, ie you dont get to see individual roles, the giants have played a secondary part of the story compared to TOT.

I strongly suspect that the Giants will play are LARGE part of the last book. I think SRD has a special place in his heart for the Giants, the Giants were critical to the successes of the 1st two chronicale-Foamfollowers humor facing LF and The First and PW saving the Staff of Law and returning it to Sunder and Holian plus the Longwrath story has to play out.

Someone mentioned packhorses. I think there is some symbolism in the Giants carrying Linden, Covenant etal. It happens often, and often in great detail. I was impressed in the similarity to the characters being carried by teh Ranhyn

As an aside I have really enjoyed the development of the Ramen characters something we only got a taste of in the 1st chronicles.

People complain about caricatures, so here's some caricatures! Must admit this thread served as one of the sources for inspiration. And yet they're not interchangeable.

earthbrah wrote:Personally, I like Frostheart Grueburn. Besides, I absolutely love her name!

Thank you, I like my name too!

You're certainly helping me differentiate the Giants, seeing them as unique characters. Invaluable! Thank you.

Has anyone ever tried to draw a croyel (any of three we met)?