Kevin's Watch

earthbrah wrote: ...The Elohim fear being caught in a structure created by Jeremiah, despite the fact that they Appointed Findail to the task of being bound with Vain--who is pure structure--in the Staff of Law. Perhaps what they're really afraid of is Jeremiah's talent being used to bind all of them into some structure that would serve to defend and support Time and Law.

Findail is not conscious of his situation. But any future Elohim trapped by one of Jeremiah's constructs will be forced to endure conscious imprisonment for all eternity.

Well, the Elohim was wildly against him completeing the structure so i'm going to say if any aren't trapped in there already, they will be. In the past they've never reacted to anything this strongly unless it meant the end for one one of them.

On another note, this was by far the best scene and best written chapter in the entire book. I loved it.

StarRider wrote:Well, the Elohim was wildly against him completeing the structure so i'm going to say if any aren't trapped in there already, they will be. In the past they've never reacted to anything this strongly unless it meant the end for one one of them.-

The Worm is taking care of the Elohim. Infelice did not want Jeremiah to recover his mind. A fully conscious and cognizant Jeremiah is far more dangerous to them.

StarRider wrote:On another note, this was by far the best scene and best written chapter in the entire book. I loved it.

As an old Trekkie, I found that Stave fighting against Infelice's compulsive force was too reminiscent of the rather bad Star Trek episode "Plato's Stepchildren."
www.youtube.com/watch?v=avTfiRccYIA

I hadn't thought of that comparison but it is spot on. SRD's version came off much less hokey and campy though.

StarRider wrote:I hadn't thought of that comparison but it is spot on. SRD's version came off much less hokey and campy though.

That scene from "Plato's Stepchildren" was also the first televised interracial kiss - although I never saw Kirk touching Uhura's lips with his. So I believe it was a fake kiss. But it would be like Infelice forcing Stave to kiss a sandgorgon. Or maybe a skest?

My favorite scene was anything involving Roger Covenant, but this thread is drifting now. I would just like to end by saying that I always wanted Roger to be more than he is portrayed in terms of deviousness. Bringing an army of cavewights was not devious enough for him.

My favorite scene was anything involving Roger Covenant, but this thread is drifting now. I would just like to end by saying that I always wanted Roger to be more than he is portrayed in terms of deviousness. Bringing an army of cavewights was not devious enough for him.

Good point. Roger seems to be used mostly as muscle. His shenanigans in FR were much more devious. Perhaps, as is implied by the death of the croyel, he is quickly running out of options. Could Foul have foreseen this as well, looking into Roger's heart and see what he truly is made of?

Hiro wrote:

My favorite scene was anything involving Roger Covenant, but this thread is drifting now. I would just like to end by saying that I always wanted Roger to be more than he is portrayed in terms of deviousness. Bringing an army of cavewights was not devious enough for him.

Good point. Roger seems to be used mostly as muscle. His shenanigans in FR were much more devious. Perhaps, as is implied by the death of the croyel, he is quickly running out of options. Could Foul have foreseen this as well, looking into Roger's heart and see what he truly is made of?

Someone should start another thread for this topic. The trap set in the Lost Deep was devious, and Roger temporarily gained from it. Didn't we all know that he was using Jeremiah as the bait? "SUCK-er!" Then his fall-back plan relied on straightforward violence. But even a million cavewights are no match for what he was up against. I thought it was funny how SRD ended the battle in one brief paragraph. Depicting the end of some characters' lives require many paragraphs, but describing the end of thousands of cavewights only requires a couple lines.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Hiro wrote:

My favorite scene was anything involving Roger Covenant, but this thread is drifting now. I would just like to end by saying that I always wanted Roger to be more than he is portrayed in terms of deviousness. Bringing an army of cavewights was not devious enough for him.

Good point. Roger seems to be used mostly as muscle. His shenanigans in FR were much more devious. Perhaps, as is implied by the death of the croyel, he is quickly running out of options. Could Foul have foreseen this as well, looking into Roger's heart and see what he truly is made of?

Someone should start another thread for this topic. The trap set in the Lost Deep was devious, and Roger temporarily gained from it. Didn't we all know that he was using Jeremiah as the bait? "SUCK-er!" Then his fall-back plan relied on straightforward violence. But even a million cavewights are no match for what he was up against. I thought it was funny how SRD ended the battle in one brief paragraph. Depicting the end of some characters' lives require many paragraphs, but describing the end of thousands of cavewights only requires a couple lines.

True that, Roger would require another topic. I had to laugh about your comment regarding the poor Cavewights, are they the stormtroopers / extra's of the Chron's?

Hiro wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Hiro wrote: Good point. Roger seems to be used mostly as muscle. His shenanigans in FR were much more devious. Perhaps, as is implied by the death of the croyel, he is quickly running out of options. Could Foul have foreseen this as well, looking into Roger's heart and see what he truly is made of?

Someone should start another thread for this topic. The trap set in the Lost Deep was devious, and Roger temporarily gained from it. Didn't we all know that he was using Jeremiah as the bait? "SUCK-er!" Then his fall-back plan relied on straightforward violence. But even a million cavewights are no match for what he was up against. I thought it was funny how SRD ended the battle in one brief paragraph. Depicting the end of some characters' lives require many paragraphs, but describing the end of thousands of cavewights only requires a couple lines.

True that, Roger would require another topic. I had to laugh about your comment regarding the poor Cavewights, are they the stormtroopers / extra's of the Chron's?

Lol. Yes, I was thinking along those lines, as well as wondering who would be considered the "red shirts." Not Liand...

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Findail is not conscious of his situation. But any future Elohim trapped by one of Jeremiah's constructs will be forced to endure conscious imprisonment for all eternity.

While Infelice certainly perceives that to be the inevitable result of Jeremiah's talent, I'd like to think that his ability is capable of merging the entire race of the Elohim into another Appointed mold of some kind (a forbidding?), where they need not be conscious of their fate, nor necessarily suffer the awareness of endless imprisonment.

I guess I just don't accept Infelice's view on this...

earthbrah wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Findail is not conscious of his situation. But any future Elohim trapped by one of Jeremiah's constructs will be forced to endure conscious imprisonment for all eternity.

While Infelice certainly perceives that to be the inevitable result of Jeremiah's talent, I'd like to think that his ability is capable of merging the entire race of the Elohim into another Appointed mold of some kind (a forbidding?), where they need not be conscious of their fate, nor necessarily suffer the awareness of endless imprisonment.

I guess I just don't accept Infelice's view on this...

"There must be forbidding. The end must be opposed by the truths of stone and wood, of orcrest and refusal."

Yes, Cav-Morin Fernhold said that to Covenant in his last memory from his time as part of the Arch. He said words to Covenant that were never actually said at that meeting of the Forestals. Cav-Morin sensed the ravers influence on the memory, and intervened. "His counsel lit recognition like tinder in Covenant's veins." (pg. 568)

A Forestal was the first to bind an Elohim in a construct: the Colossus.

earthbrah wrote:Yes, Cav-Morin Fernhold said that to Covenant in his last memory from his time as part of the Arch. He said words to Covenant that were never actually said at that meeting of the Forestals. Cav-Morin sensed the ravers influence on the memory, and intervened. "His counsel lit recognition like tinder in Covenant's veins." (pg. 568)

A Forestal was the first to bind an Elohim in a construct: the Colossus.

I disagree. Covenant was really there, in spirit, and Cav-Morin recognized him.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

I disagree. Covenant was really there, in spirit, and Cav-Morin recognized him.

It is clear that Cav-Morin recognized Covenant. Whether or not Covenant was really there...the text pretty much says that he wasn't.

earthbrah wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

I disagree. Covenant was really there, in spirit, and Cav-Morin recognized him.

It is clear that Cav-Morin recognized Covenant. Whether or not Covenant was really there...the text pretty much says that he wasn't.

I'll have to take another look. It also appears he was actually in Foul's Creche and then Foul banished him.

earthbrah wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

I disagree. Covenant was really there, in spirit, and Cav-Morin recognized him.

It is clear that Cav-Morin recognized Covenant. Whether or not Covenant was really there...the text pretty much says that he wasn't.

Recall that turiya Herem tripped a memory in Covenant's broken psyche, taking him back to the scene in history that he loved the most.

But something was different this time.

No! Covenant protested. He felt abruptly wounded; pierced to the soul. No. This isn’t what happened. This isn’t what I heard.

I don't think this scene is capable of being deciphered. The memory malfunctioned somehow, but in such a way that it fortunately brought Covenant back to the present. The entire chapter is surreal, and bordering on unreal.

Worm wrote:

I don't think this scene is capable of being deciphered. The memory malfunctioned somehow, but in such a way that it fortunately brought Covenant back to the present. The entire chapter is surreal, and bordering on unreal.

I like the way the text explains it, saying something like the melody of the Forestals was underestimated, and that they were able to see through the raver's memory ruse.

Perhaps that part of Covenant that was part of the Arch was still active in that memory, and therefore he could be a part of the scene, thus being able to hear Cav-Morin speak directly to him. SOMEthing made that possible...

But any way you slice it, I agree that the entire chapter is surreal.

I was under the impression that the Elohim had been trapped and that they were going to be used as the Colossus was in creating some form of a Forbidding, (if one Elohim was cabable of keeping Despite and Ravers out, what could the total Elohim race accomplish) probably by creating some type of 'time tunnel' hence sending the Worm back to the beginning.






Note to self: Examine the Creation myths in 2nd Chrons for clues ie no stars, no Elohim.

hue of bone wrote:

(if one Elohim was cabable of keeping Despite and Ravers out, what could the total Elohim race accomplish)

That's what I'm screamin.

Personally, I think the subjective "purpose" was just to free his mind, though I'm sure it will have some other largely unintended consequence. I just wonder where at the end of the book the stars are winking out, that is a reference to the Elohim being trapped in the construct (rather than being consumed by the worm)? Though, having said that, to all intents and purposes the construct now appears to have burned itself out?