What SRD said about AATE at WFC

[Fist and Faith]

So why did you say I wasn't gonna read it?

But I'm sure "Fist" means nothing to him. He made it clear at the first Fest that he didn't have any interest in our Watch names. He didn't say "You geeks keep that to yourself!", but...
At least he didn't run away!

[Seareach]

It wasn't me! I'd blame Romeo.

Bad Romeo!!!

Hey - I told him about it *previous* to that meeting. And as a funny story - I wasn't about to say there was someone who refused to read the book because he was disappointed. it was either dlb or ali who actually said the name "Fist."

Hey, sorry, I was just messing around...as I mentioned it to him a while ago! ...no names, of course...although I think I said the person in question hated Linden, and the last two books.

[Fist and Faith]

So why did you say I wasn't gonna read it?

What I mean is, what reason would I have for not reading it other than because I was disappointed in the first two?

[aliantha]

So why did you say I wasn't gonna read it?

What I mean is, what reason would I have for not reading it other than because I was disappointed in the first two?

Fear of being disappointed again.

But it's clear that you're invested in knowing what happens, or else you wouldn't have bothered to sign up for this forum. Which is why I keep coming back to telling you, "Just read the damn book!"

[dlbpharmd]

It wasn't me! I'd blame Romeo.

Bad Romeo!!!

Hey - I told him about it *previous* to that meeting. And as a funny story - I wasn't about to say there was someone who refused to read the book because he was disappointed. it was either dlb or ali who actually said the name "Fist."

I'd blame Aliantha.

[Hiro]

Thanks or sharing! It's great to read such immediate feedback from the author.

[bushidoken]

I am just abit curious to wonder if the First great Rhanyhyn horse is actually the lurker itself having forgotten its origin and deal it made with Lord Foul to save its people. I would be very interested to know if the answer to that question will be coming in the last book.

[variol son]

I kind of understand where you're coming from with this, but as I remember Kelenbrabanal "bared his throat" to Lord Foul and was killed as part of the bargain, and Mahrtiir suspects that teh Lurker was an incorporeal Foul's method of carrying out the actual killing. And I don't see either The Father of Horses being the type of creature leave behind shreds like samadhi Sheol did, or the Lurker being the kind of creature to absorb such shreds like Nom did.

[timetraveler8]

Yes, thanks for sharing the questions and answers with SRD with everyone here. I am new here so it is quite fantastic!

[Zarathustra]

He talked about if there is a being that creates, then it makes sense that there must be an opposite being that is despair. (I thought it interesting that he used the term despair as the opposite of creation instead of 'destruction.') Then he talked about how it makes sense that if there is this force that is the manifestation of love and passion, then there must be an opposite, which is complete indifference.

So, "a being that creates" is the Creator, "an opposite being that is despair" is Lord Foul, "this force that is the manifestation of love and passion" is white gold .... SO ... what is the opposite force that is complete indifference?? Something new to be revealed? Or am I missing something?

Or maybe, since the question and answer seemed to involve She, this is the "force" which represents Love/Passion, and there is another "force" in the form of another being/Bane which is yet to be revealed?

It reminds of AATE, page 47:

"She was--or is--or has always been--an aspect of eternity. Maybe she was Love. The Lover. And maybe she fell when the Despiser did. That's possible. Despite isn't the opposite of Love. That's Indifference. Love has more in common with Despite and Creation than with Indifference."

[Vraith]

Or maybe, since the question and answer seemed to involve She, this is the "force" which represents Love/Passion, and there is another "force" in the form of another being/Bane which is yet to be revealed?

Someone, somewhere suggested TWOWE as the Indifference...in a way it fits: all the thing does, far as we know, is eat and rest. And it seems to be an Immortal thing [isn't it said somewhere that it would survive the end of the Arch, and ravage the stars again, as it did before it went to rest?].
I personally don't like it, cuz as I said there the Worm hasn't any intelligence as far as we know. It doesn't care...but it doesn't know anything. I would think Indifference requires understanding exactly what you're doing, and not caring anyway. [OTOH...I think it's a bit late to add another bane/immortal that IIRC, hasn't even been hinted at]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Or maybe, since the question and answer seemed to involve She, this is the "force" which represents Love/Passion, and there is another "force" in the form of another being/Bane which is yet to be revealed?

Someone, somewhere suggested TWOWE as the Indifference...in a way it fits: all the thing does, far as we know, is eat and rest. And it seems to be an Immortal thing [isn't it said somewhere that it would survive the end of the Arch, and ravage the stars again, as it did before it went to rest?].
I personally don't like it, cuz as I said there the Worm hasn't any intelligence as far as we know. It doesn't care...but it doesn't know anything. I would think Indifference requires understanding exactly what you're doing, and not caring anyway. [OTOH...I think it's a bit late to add another bane/immortal that IIRC, hasn't even been hinted at]

The Worm can still symbolize Indifference even without a huge brain capable of producing actual indifference. It's not unlike a Dune sandworm, just larger and having more symbolic meaning. And I predict Linden is going to ride it.

[Zarathustra]

Well, the Worm seems like an obvious possibility, now that you mention it. Maybe we shouldn't think of indifference in terms of an attitude people can have, but rather the cold indifference the universe itself has for life? The fact that nature doesn't care if you live or die? Destruction and creation don't really matter to nature. Though mortality can be inflicted through malice and depite--murder, a destructive act--mortality is also a natural feature "written" into our DNA, and ultimately a product of entropy itself. The worm certainly fills that role for the Chronicles.

Though that seems to contradict the SRD quote I use for my signature. Why would "Worm" be an external superstructure which misses the point as an attempt at *meaning* if it represents the cold, uncaring, indifference of a meaningless universe?

Maybe I just answered my own question: the point is to find a human meaning, which is definitely missed in the nihilism of materialistic reductionism. Accepting that the Worm is the final "meaning," the ultimate truth of reality, is ignoring that we can imbue reality with our own meaning despite that fact that we're still all dying. Beautiful.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Well, the Worm seems like an obvious possibility, now that you mention it. Maybe we shouldn't think of indifference in terms of an attitude people can have, but rather the cold indifference the universe itself has for life? The fact that nature doesn't care if you live or die? Destruction and creation don't really matter to nature. Though mortality can be inflicted through malice and depite--murder, a destructive act--mortality is also a natural feature "written" into our DNA, and ultimately a product of entropy itself. The worm certainly fills that role for the Chronicles.

Exactly. See, we can be on the same page about things.

Though that seems to contradict the SRD quote I use for my signature. Why would "Worm" be an external superstructure which misses the point as an attempt at *meaning* if it represents the cold, uncaring, indifference of a meaningless universe?

Maybe I just answered my own question: the point is to find a human meaning, which is definitely missed in the nihilism of materialistic reductionism. Accepting that the Worm is the final "meaning," the ultimate truth of reality, is ignoring that we can imbue reality with our own meaning despite that fact that we're still all dying. Beautiful.

Linden represents Meaning, just as she gave the Land meaning at the end of WGW. But "meaning" itself is only a catalyst, like oxygen, an element that passively enables fire which is both supporting and destructive of life depending on how its used. The Classical element symbolized in TLD will be Fire, and the meaning Linden gives the Phoenix rising from the ashes of the old world will be imbued with a meaning that comes more from her newly-found wisdom, and not just the naive wisdom or understanding of the past Chrons.

[Zarathustra]

I just had a weird and possibly amazing thought: what if the Worm is given something else to munch on besides Earthblood? Could it go back to sleep then without breaking the Arch, and the world survive? Given my last post about the Worm's meaning (or rather, its lack thereof) I was thinking that an acceptance of the Worm, self-sacrifice in the name of love, could directly set these two opposites against each other in a way that isn't destructive, but instead preserves. Love/hope is the power that preserves.

So what would be potent enough for satiate the Worm? Would the Bane and Foul do the trick? Two beings from beyond Time? But they'd have to give themselves to the Worm for this to be an act of love and sacrifice. That's not bloody likely. They'd first have to be redeemed ...

I've mentioned elsewhere that since people from the real world who die in the Land stay in the Land transformed (Hile Troy, Covenant, for instance), then Joan must still be there ... transformed. I've predicted she could become the Bane herself, and maybe that's been the name that can't be uttered all along.

And we've heard several hints over the years that Covenant somehow becomes Foul, or already is Foul, or Foul is part of him, etc. So perhaps this metaphor becomes more literal, too, another transformation for Tom. And then Joan-as-She-Bane and Covenant-as-Foul give themselves to the Worm, and save everyone. How's that for an ending? It would still qualify as the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, because he'd be gone. But it would still end on a hopeful note (the Land would still exist) that aligns with the philosophical theme of resisting the despair which is brought about by a confrontation with the unattractive truths of reality (death, disease, etc.) without resorting to an external, supernatural source of the meaning and hope.

[Vraith]

Heh...I have a lot of reservations/questions/different predictions on the details/mechanism you describe. [though a couple remarkably similar, and a couple where I just think "I wouldn't like that," as personal preference].
But...the gestalt of it, the transformations/redemptions, and a meaningful world/peoples independent of the metaphysical outside...that's a big "Oh, yes."

I'm still pondering where what you said on Indifference leads...but [this is mostly addressed to what you first said, and Worm's agreement] in my world [which may be idiosyncratic on this point] a thing cannot be indifferent without understanding. The universe isn't coldly indifferent to us: it is unaware of us at all...it isn't uncaring, because it is incapable of either caring or its opposite.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Heh...I have a lot of reservations/questions/different predictions on the details/mechanism you describe. [though a couple remarkably similar, and a couple where I just think "I wouldn't like that," as personal preference].
But...the gestalt of it, the transformations/redemptions, and a meaningful world/peoples independent of the metaphysical outside...that's a big "Oh, yes."

I'm still pondering where what you said on Indifference leads...but [this is mostly addressed to what you first said, and Worm's agreement] in my world [which may be idiosyncratic on this point] a thing cannot be indifferent without understanding. The universe isn't coldly indifferent to us: it is unaware of us at all...it isn't uncaring, because it is incapable of either caring or its opposite.

Yes, but Indifference is the meaning we lend to it.

[Ur Dead]

Well aside from it all

Thanks aliantha for having the gumption to ask "Him" about SHE
and the other stuff.
(At least there one person who isn't afraid of an Ohioian... aka displaced buckeye.. )

Must have been fun..

/sorta deadguy from Ohio...

[Zarathustra]

But...the gestalt of it, the transformations/redemptions, and a meaningful world/peoples independent of the metaphysical outside...that's a big "Oh, yes."

Cool.

...a thing cannot be indifferent without understanding. The universe isn't coldly indifferent to us: it is unaware of us at all...it isn't uncaring, because it is incapable of either caring or its opposite.

Technically, you're right. When we say the universe is indifferent to our fate, we're speaking figuratively. It's a way to deny the opposite position; namely, that the universe (or a god) cares about you. As such, it's an ironic statement, because it requires that you anthropomorphize the very thing which you're trying to define as impersonal.

But we're talking about a metaphor, anyway. "Despite" isn't an immortal being who laughs at lepers. "Love" isn't an immortal Bane who cheated on her husband. When you insist upon being this technical and literal in talking about the universe, you forget that we're talking about a Worm that is (possibly) a symbol for it. It's perfectly appropriate to anthropomorphize the universe's inability to care--or not care--when we're talking about it in terms of metaphors in a fantasy story.

And if we're going to be strictly technical and literal, I don't think it's possible for humans to be indifferent, either. At least not for the important things in life. Remember Rush's words from the song Freewill, "... if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." I don't think it's possible for humans not to care, one way or the other. It's inhuman. Being indecisive is just a way to avoid taking a stand. It's an aversion that is often built on fear of choosing. That's still an emotional state--just one in turmoil and denial. I don't think that's the opposite of love/hate. It's in the same spectrum.

Perhaps it's true that we can be indifferent to minor issues. For instance, I don't love or despise what you choose to watch on TV tonight. It's really none of my business. But I can't believe that Donaldson is talking about our reaction to unimportant things that are none of our business. He's talking about the deepest aspects of being human. Life, death, marriage, family. No one is indifferent when it comes to these things. He almost *has* to be talking about an inhuman, impersonal entity. There's no other way that indifference can be the opposite of caring unless we're talking about something that is so far removed from human emotions that it might as well be inhuman and impersonal. Otherwise, it's just another form of Despite. For instance, if you were dying right in front of me and I couldn't care less, couldn't be bothered to lift and finger and help, that's not indifference ... that's psychotic. That's Lord Foul.

Instead of, "...a thing cannot be indifferent without understanding," I would say just the opposite is true: it's impossible to understand and still be indifferent. Understanding itself is an engagement with the issue at hand that precludes indifference.

[Vraith]

I see...and the point is taken.
OTOH, I'm appalled at myself that I wrote it in a way that made you think I was appealing to the literal/technical. I meant to use that only as an analogy to point at what I see as the metaphorical weakness of the Worm as Indifference [if that is really what it is...and it might be].
I think it is too simple in relation to other metaphors/symbols in a few nebulous ways, but at least one fairly specific way:
For me [and again, this may be idiosyncratic] one thread, among several, that runs through my reading of the Chron's is that everyone, even...especially, perhaps...LF works because whatever they are they have the capacity to be something else.
This doesn't seem to be the case for the Worm [heh...unless there is another sense in which the Worm can be "Awakened"...and that might be an interesting thing to happen].
Of course it makes sense that there is at least one fundamental thing, like the Worm, that is an unalterable fact of existence, is just [paraphrasing/altering someone] brutally, or indifferently, so...yet, in a metaphorical/symbolic world of externalized human facets and choice as an essential force, I would prefer an external Indifference that has chosen/is transformable.