What the hell is up with 99% of women??

[JazFusion]

I never had many female friends. Even to this day, I get along better with men than women. Most women see me as competition. Most men see it as a confidence booster to be friends with an attractive woman, I guess.

Guess again.

Killjoy.

[Cambo]

Anyway, my whole point is I think we as a society should focus on "what's inside" versus "what's outside". Trite, I'm sure, but that is the idealist talking in me.

Not so trite as the "perfect woman: 36-24-36, blond hair, blue eyes, clear skin, etc." Never really understood that anyway. I like brunettes.

[peter]

Cambo, the real answer to the self-image problem suffered by many women today is the bombardment of imagery they are subjected to by the Media, that promotes the idea 'if you aint beautiful you aint nothing'. Our society is sooo looks obsessed, that to be anything other than a carbon copy of the particular type that gets itself onto the front of the glossies every day, is to be left out in the cold. No wonder women feel that they are not up to the mark when the only ones they see in the media (and in successful positions elsewhere as well very often) are the ones that conform to the fashion/media world's idea of what is 100% perfect. I actually like the imperfections of ordinary people way more than the boring stereotypes that find their way into the celebrity cattle market. Remember the Ghaddi's entourage of flimsy clad beauties. They weren't noted for their depth of charachter and intelect were they - and no- one wants to eat candyfloss every day!

[Fist and Faith]

I once had a boss who was as gorgeous a creature as I've ever known. Seriously, it was difficult to work with her. I just couldn't concentrate. Although it was just me and 15 women in the department, there were other guys around the building. I was talking to one of them once, and, as usual, we were talking about women. He said, "Yeah, she's beautiful. But Maryann's more my type." Maryann was not even in the same ballpark, imo.

And that's the point of this post. "IMO." Women need to know that there are all kinds of different men, with all kinds of different tastes. There's no need for everybody to look the same way. And once you do, you're not going to be as attractive to all those other guys.


So what do we all think is the reason guys don't go through all this? I know I'm not in the same league as all the movie stars. Nobody has ever ever ever looked at me the way women have so often looked at Brad Pitt, or Robert Redford, or George Clooney, or any of those guys. The same can be said about almost all guys. But we don't feel the same way about it, and there aren't threads about us like this thread.

[Cambo]

Peter, I agree with you that the media plays an important role in all of this. But as a media student, I am constantly harangued to be wary of deterministic models. The media produces culture, yes, but it also reflects.

Fist, I think first off that guys do go through it more than might be expected. I know I have worked through self image issues, and have had to learn not to think of myself as ugly.

However, it's true that physical appearance does affect women much more than men. Why is this? I'm no sociologist, but I can speculate. Perhapse it's because men define themselves more by their abilities than their looks. What a guy can do is far more important, at least to other men, than what he looks like. Masculine stereotypes are mostly to do with ability; you're supposed to be a handyman, hold your own in a fight, get it up whenever you need to, provide for you family, etc. There is a stereotyped masculine look, but it is far less important than your aptitude.

Not to sound like a raging feminist, but it's likely this all comes back to patriarchy. Put simply, men havge traditionally been the "doers," women the "lookers" (note multiple meanings of both words).

[Vraith]

Not to sound like a raging feminist, but it's likely this all comes back to patriarchy.

There are plenty of things to blame on patriarchy, but I don't believe that body-image is one of them.
I think a significant root of the thing is that our social brain function has been overwhelmed/reached its point of incompetence. For example, almost everybody everywhere is exposed, on any single day, to more strangers than historically they'd have seen in their whole lives: in that swarm, there simply isn't time or method to really interact except through looks/appearance. But people aren't peacocks. We are not designed for single-sense interactions as a way of life...and even peacocks only obsess during breeding season.

The media is certainly part of the problem...but also you're correct: it does not create the problem. It starts from a natural tendency to wonder a bit "am I good looking?," then exacerbates it by heightening the importance and defining and strengthening the borders of what "looks good." It also strives to prevent you from even asking yourself "how important is it?"

[peter]

This goes back way beyond the patriarchy, right into the roots of natural selection. A female mammal has to look healthy to attract mates - and certain gene combinations will produce stronger 'fitter' female's that will attract more attention from males than less fit ones. This varying degree of underlying 'fitness' as a potential sex partner to bear a males offspring will manifest itself in apparent attractiveness in the particular female being scrutinsed. (hence Cambo's aversion to fat women - this is just the up-front manifestation of his underlying understanding of their low potential as a good breeding partner.)
Women are aware of this both at the concious and subconcious level and so are genetically programed (if you like) to be more aware of thier physical appearence. This is the same driving force that makes birds preen and build big nests etc. The need to attract the (pretty vapid I'm afraid) male of the species.

[Cagliostro]

Supposedly, I was a "pretty boy" in high school/college/maybe a few years past that. Unfortunately, from Jr. High to the first year in high school, I had "birth control glasses," and was gauky and nerdy. After I switched to contacts, developed a sense of style with what I wore (instead of jeans and t-shirt), and, well, bathed more (from about twice a week to every day), that was when I started to get noticed by the opposite sex. I started to get a bit more confidence, but mainly I still felt nerdy and gauky.
Now that I'm 41 and fat, I look back at pictures of myself, I barely recognize myself. The funny thing is, prior to high school when I "blossomed," I didn't really give a shit what I looked like. Then when I did, I couldn't appreciate it because I still felt like I did before.
It's kinda like from that Wear Sunscreen speech/song:

Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth. Oh, never mind. You will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they've faded. But trust me, in 20 years, you'll look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can't grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked. You are not as fat as you imagine.

Now I'm heavier than I've ever been and may now have the lowest sense of body image than I've ever had. Stupid aging.

[JazFusion]

I once had a boss who was as gorgeous a creature as I've ever known. Seriously, it was difficult to work with her. I just couldn't concentrate. Although it was just me and 15 women in the department, there were other guys around the building. I was talking to one of them once, and, as usual, we were talking about women. He said, "Yeah, she's beautiful. But Maryann's more my type." Maryann was not even in the same ballpark, imo.

And that's the point of this post. "IMO." Women need to know that there are all kinds of different men, with all kinds of different tastes. There's no need for everybody to look the same way. And once you do, you're not going to be as attractive to all those other guys.


So what do we all think is the reason guys don't go through all this? I know I'm not in the same league as all the movie stars. Nobody has ever ever ever looked at me the way women have so often looked at Brad Pitt, or Robert Redford, or George Clooney, or any of those guys. The same can be said about almost all guys. But we don't feel the same way about it, and there aren't threads about us like this thread.

True enough. Though I'm not so sure it's women trying to look good for men, or keeping up appearances to other women. Women are harsh.

I truly do believe men also go through body image issues, though I don't think to the extremes that women do. Men must have big muscles to attract women, or if you're scrawny, you must be funny. Those types of things.

Men also have problems with anorexia, bulimia, etc. It's just not reported as highly as women. For women, a woman getting help for her anorexia is empowering. For men, a man even admitting he is anorexic is seen as weak. In that sense, I think men go through more psychologically than physically.

[JazFusion]

And it all depends upon the time period, as well.

Right now it's super cool to be a geek. Skinny, glasses, novelty T-shirts, etc. The whole emo thing. Skinny is in, right now, for men and women.

Then there's the whole metrosexual thing, which I won't get into here. That's a whole other thread in and of itself.

Anyway, my entire point with any of the things I've said is I just wish we could all just love each other, no matter what size. All you need is love, etc.

Also, I use "etc." a lot. What is up with that?

[Cagliostro]

And it all depends upon the time period, as well.

Right now it's super cool to be a geek. Skinny, glasses, novelty T-shirts, etc. The whole emo thing. Skinny is in, right now, for men and women.

Then there's the whole metrosexual thing, which I won't get into here. That's a whole other thread in and of itself.

Anyway, my entire point with any of the things I've said is I just wish we could all just love each other, no matter what size. All you need is love, etc.

Also, I use "etc." a lot. What is up with that?

Well, there are complete dork glasses, and there are more stylish glasses. These glasses I wore were closer to Martin Starr in Freaks and Geeks instead of the chic geek of today. And skinny is ok. Being a lanky, goofy thing is something else. Once I moved toward what would now be called metrosexual which in the day was called along the lines of New Wave, New Romantic, Art Fag, etc., I was accepted and allowed to join the cool kids reindeer games, particularly since by that time I didn't give a shit what they thought of me. But those in the "Alternative" scene did accept me, and I thought most of them were pretty cool; at least the ones that weren't just jumping around dying to be noticed by everyone, and bitching when people did notice them.

[[Syl]]

Heh. I have no idea where I fit in here. I've always been a good looking guy. Never been happy about my weight, but never let it bother me much. I have short legs, but since I'm average height, it's never really mattered. I'm hairy, but not unsightly (well, now that I'm older I could probably use some heavy waxing, but that's one of the advantages of being married). Despite being OK with how I look, I've never been good with the opposite sex (being gay would've been easier in that regard, but I never had any interest in that), and since I really like women, that used to be a problem. I could say it was because I was shy, a dork, and lacked confidence, but while those are all true to a degree, that wasn't it. Similarly, I could blame growing up poor, growing up without a father, or my inability to accurately translate the internal to the external. Same for that. I guess it comes down to the fact that I always expected it to be easy... to just happen. I cared enough to dislike the situation but not enough to do anything about it. Sometimes it got to be too much and I did something about it, and it's strange how easy it was (story of my life, right there). *shrug* It sounds cliched, but it's not how you look or how you are as a person so much as it's the things you decide to do... and then actually do. I still struggle with it, but I find I'm happier when I say, in so many words, "I don't give a fuck," and be who I want to be. The thing I've been working on lately is figuring out that I'm not just my potential, that I have to be as good as I think I am and as I portray myself to be. It's a shame I didn't learn this until years after being married, but the catch 22 of it is that I wouldn't have learned it otherwise.

Women, though... That's a tough one. I'm constantly amazed at how varied their beauty is. I can tell you there are more women who are beautiful that don't know it than ones that do, but of the latter, the phrase 'No matter how good she looks, there's a guy out there who got tired of putting up with her shit' comes to mind. There are beautiful women I don't find attractive, and those are also usually in the second category (and, strangely enough to me, black girls). There are even some girls that weren't all that pretty that I found attractive... spending a lot of time together, beer goggles, an insight into their true personality. *shrug* Lately, what catches my eye is the unique. I look back on some of the girls I thought were cute in high school (and those I didn't), and I'm almost disgusted with myself.

I could go on, but I've probably dug myself a deep enough hole for now.

[___]

How do you guys feel about Cher? I hear that's a pretty good litmus test....

She was pretty at least till Moonstruck (mid-eighties?), but some time after that she started looking weird, in that 'too much plastic surgery' way. I remember watching Sonny & Cher when I was a kid; I thought she was beautiful back then.

The thing I worry about is my daughter. I've always told her she is beautiful, smart, perfect, the whole works. She dyes her hair every now and then; always auburn (she was blonde as a baby, but her hair is gradually turning brown). I just hope I didn't say something the first time she dyed it that makes her want to keep it red.

[aliantha]

Meh. My kids went through a red phase, too. It's when they start buying hair dye at Hot Topic in colors not naturally found on human heads that you've got to worry.

And even then, I wouldn't get too bent out of shape. Hair, after all, grows out, and teens grow up. And the prospect of being employed will often force them to tone it down (except for Av, of course -- he's a special case ).

[Vain]

One thing a woman needs to be on the road to being perfect is a love for doing the ironing.

[High Lord Tolkien]

today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36821119/ns/today-today_people/

I've never been able to figure out the "Julia Roberts Mystery" as I call it.

To me she's never been above average looking and often I'd call her "a long nosed horse faced wretch" and yet she makes the "Most Beautiful" list more than anyone.

Check out the other names on that page.
Lots of ugly people called beautiful. Adam Lambert? wtf?

The world of fashion is pretty f#cked up too.

Fashion models are emaciated with zombie-like makeup. (Victoria Secret models are the exception).
Yet these are the faces and bodies woman are show wearing clothes that are supposed to be special and beautiful.
Most fashion designers for women are gay men.....anyone find this odd and perhaps strikes at the very core of why women have low self-esteem?

Women are being told what's beautiful by men who are attracted to men.
That's like a total no-win situation for women.

[Damelon]

I was thinking about Julia Roberts in regards to this thread, but not in the same way. I was in the check-out line at the grocery store a week or so ago when I noticed the cover picture of one of those weekly magazines, with a big headline of how some stars had let themselves go. It was unflattering picture of her on a beach somewhere, highlighting her backside and the cellulite in her legs. A real cheap shot, if you ask me.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

It's really annoying, the bipolar nature of the media, or rather the two extremes that the media seems fascinated with. On the one hand, we have Men's and Women's magazines with photoshopped super-idealized cover models, because we are drawn to 'pretty'/'handsome'. However, these are mostly genetically good-looking people who have additionally striven to achieve physical perfection by adhering to a strict diet/exercise regimen, and gone further by 'prepping' for the photo-shoot by denying themselves water to achieve a final 'cut' look. Plus, these photos are nearly always 'cleaned up' meaning they are photoshopped to remove imperfections.
Then at the other end, you have the magazines that delight in showing the 'bad day' side of 'normal' for celebrities, which highlights the fact that we are all human, and have cellulite, warts, puffy eyes, and that we all have angles at which we look bad on camera. And if you are a celebrity, this stands in stark contrast to the reams of photo evidence giving the impression of perfection/flawlessness.
These magazines print these photos because they sell, I suppose.

Julia Roberts has the same inexplicable mystique that Johnny Depp does, in my opinion. Julia Roberts is not ugly, but I don't get the 'most beautiful person' thing. And even before the PotC movies, Johnny Depp always seemed to me like he most needed a shower with soap. What people see in him I have no idea, even though Edward Scissorhands remains one of my favorite movies of all time.

dw

[Cagliostro]

And even before the PotC movies, Johnny Depp always seemed to me like he most needed a shower with soap. What people see in him I have no idea, even though Edward Scissorhands remains one of my favorite movies of all time.

dw

It's the beautiful eyes he has. Which, strangely enough, are nearly the same eyes as Helena Bonham Carter. I really think that is the reason Tim Burton became enamoured of her, with a love he wouldn't allow himself to share with Johnny. Or maybe vice versa.

[dANdeLION]

I've never been able to figure out the "Julia Roberts Mystery" as I call it.

I thought she looked pretty in Pretty Woman. Anyway, forget her; explain to me what makes Sarah Jessica Parker hot, because I'm not seeing it. Maybe she's just an extraordinarily sweet person in real life, and that's what the media sees in her.