Kevin's Watch

Now I'm confused, because I don't see the issue or the inconsistency. To recap the most important source...

SRD in the GI wrote: Clearly Kevin *does* act when the Law of Death has been broken. But perhaps the confusion is one of direction (which I tried to explain earlier in the GI); of moving from death toward life instead from life toward death. It might help if you think of Covenant's final place within the Arch of Time as a form of "remaining alive": after all, (in an admittedly specialized sense) nothing is more alive than Time, since without Time there is no life. The breaking of the Law of Life permits Covenant to "act" like a living being even though he's just been killed.

So the author himself is telling us that the dead can and do in fact act, affecting the living world, once the Law of Death has been broken. This explains Kevin's ability to act in the battle with Elena - let's face it, he's hardly passive while causing her demise. It also explains the whole gift thing in the 2nd Chrons - giving someone something, even leaving aside the importance of the gift itself, is clearly an active "act". I don't see any discontinuity there.

Zarathustra wrote:One final note, and then I've got to sleep ... perhaps the apparent inconsistencies about the Dead acting and the necessity of breaking the Law of Life are there because Donaldson didn't really need the Law of Life to be broken for the 2nd Chrons, but knew he'd need it for the LC (e.g. raising TC from the dead). And so his explanations for needing that Law to be broken for the 2nd Chrons feels unsatisfactory because he was planning it for an event he could not reveal until years later.

I'm not sure about that. Although the dead clearly act and although their actions clearly affect the material world, they only seem to interact with whoever they are the dead of - I hope that makes sense... you know what I mean, Covenant's dead, Linden's dead, Stave's dead etc. Plus they only act in Andelain and their actions are ones of advice and gifts. The complete exception to this is of course Kevin in Chrons 1, but he had been commanded by the irresistible Power of Command, so that may have put him under far less strictures.

WormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: The Law of Life was broken in order to bring Hollian back, although her resurrection was tenuous and had the effect of limiting both her and Sunder to Andelain. (Sunder was evidently also killed and resurrected at the same time as Hollian was resurrected.) As Hollian stated, "The Law Caer-Caveral broke was the one that kept the dead from crossing back into life." In other words, it is the Law that prevents resurrection ("crossing back into life"), she said nothing about the Dead now being capable of action. And in TWL they were capable of action, they talked and offered gifts; one can also cite the events with Kevin's shade in TIW under Skyweir.

Absolutely agreed... see above re the dead clearly being capable of action. The breaking of the Law of Life was crucial to the denouement of WGW - it was totally necessary to bring Hollian back so she could restore the Land once Linden had dispelled the SunBane. Bear in mind that Hollian needed to take a far FAR more active part in events - she couldn't be limited to whoever she was the dead of. She needed to heal the Land at least in part, rather than just be limited to hanging around in Andelain, waiting to meet someone to whom she was significant, just to give some advice or maybe a gift. In order for her to be able to fulfil this more active role, she needed to be properly alive again. Hence the need for the Law of Life to be broken - this allows resurrection, as you say.

In his GI quote above, SRD draws attention to "Covenant remaining alive" while within the Arch of Time. He states that TC can "act like a living being" while within the AoT. That needs careful consideration - I think what SRD intends by this is that TC keeps some level of humanity while he is TimeWarden. He's not entirely dead - he can experience human emotions such as joy and compassion while he sustains the arch. I don't think he can take much of an active hand while he is TW, though, without risking the shattering of the AoT. I think it's mentioned within the Last Chrons that the only reason he could be as communicative as he was as TimeWarden (e.g. Linden's dreams, Anele's possession) is because the Law of Life had been broken.

WormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: The argument that makes the most sense is the paradox of Covenant and Foul being one. They are the same although they are fighting for completely opposite goals, they require each other while at the same time contradicting one another, like Yin and Yang.

That to me is a slight non-sequitur, but only because I don't see the inconsistency that you do. However, as has been commented on many times, there is a strong school of thought that sees Covenant and Foul literally as one. I personally can see an alternate possible explanation...

SRD in White Gold Wielder wrote: We aren't enemies, no matter what he says. He and I are one. But he doesn't seem to know that. Or maybe he hates it too much to admit it. Evil can't exist unless the capacity to stand against it also exists. And you and I are the Land - in a manner of speaking, anyway. He's just one side of us. That's his paradox. He's one side of us. We're one side of him. When he killed me, he was really trying to kill the other half of himself.

Could TC's claim here simply be pointing out that in order to perceive something, it needs to be contrasted against something else, and preferably its polar opposite. To use a trite example, you can't see black text on black paper... that black text can be said not to exist because it cannot be perceived. Therefore Evil cannot exist in the absence of Good and vice versa - all you'd have is a seamless stagnant monochrome, one way or the other. The two are intrinsically necessary to and - bizarrely - supportive of each other's existence. Destroying one would de facto destroy the other, because it would become unperceivable.

TheFallen wrote:In his GI quote above, SRD draws attention to "Covenant remaining alive" while within the Arch of Time. He states that TC can "act like a living being" while within the AoT. That needs careful consideration - I think what SRD intends by this is that TC keeps some level of humanity while he is TimeWarden. He's not entirely dead - he can experience human emotions such as joy and compassion while he sustains the arch. I don't think he can take much of an active hand while he is TW, though, without risking the shattering of the AoT. I think it's mentioned within the Last Chrons that the only reason he could be as communicative as he was as TimeWarden (e.g. Linden's dreams, Anele's possession) is because the Law of Life had been broken.
WormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

The argument that makes the most sense is the paradox of Covenant and Foul being one. They are the same although they are fighting for completely opposite goals, they require each other while at the same time contradicting one another, like Yin and Yang.

That to me is a slight non-sequitur, but only because I don't see the inconsistency that you do. However, as has been commented on many times, there is a strong school of thought that sees Covenant and Foul literally as one. I personally can see an alternate possible explanation...

SRD in White Gold Wielder wrote:

We aren't enemies, no matter what he says. He and I are one. But he doesn't seem to know that. Or maybe he hates it too much to admit it. Evil can't exist unless the capacity to stand against it also exists. And you and I are the Land - in a manner of speaking, anyway. He's just one side of us. That's his paradox. He's one side of us. We're one side of him. When he killed me, he was really trying to kill the other half of himself.

Could TC's claim here simply be pointing out that in order to perceive something, it needs to be contrasted against something else, and preferably its polar opposite. To use a trite example, you can't see black text on black paper... that black text can be said not to exist because it cannot be perceived. Therefore Evil cannot exist in the absence of Good and vice versa - all you'd have is a seamless stagnant monochrome, one way or the other. The two are intrinsically necessary to and - bizarrely - supportive of each other's existence. Destroying one would de facto destroy the other, because it would become unperceivable

It should be understood that Covenant's status as Timewarden was made possible by wild magic. This gave him the freedom to behave as if alive, whereas the other Dead still - despite the breaking of the Law - were limited in communication and action by some Law. They still only arrive when summoned by a person, or by the Land's need, but spend most of eternity at rest. The Timewarden cannot rest, he cannot afford to. The only difference I see is the wild magic. And the communication stricture upon him in ROTE apparently came from Kastenessan.

I agree with the slight non-sequitur, except there is nothing I can do about Covenant's faulty method of understanding. He is clearly in over his head with this whole issue of paradox. I imagine he would prefer to organize his thoughts around real world issues, not weird metaphysical paradoxes. I've certainly discussed whether or not it actually is a paradox, technically speaking. However, it is the best explanation available for the events at the end of WGW.

Dear All,

There has been much discussion here and I assume in other threads, that TC and LF are one. TC says it and SRD has pointed it out. Couple this with the following partial quote from the Gradual Interview

"Once you accept the notion that all of these characters find their genesis in Covenant's mind, the explanation is clear. Naturally they know all the words he knows."

and I come down to only two possible outcomes for this series.

First, TC was our Un-believing anit-hero in Chrons 1. He defeats LF. In Chrons 2 he encounters LA, with her own inner despite. She shares his experience in the Land, as if they are sharing a dream. LF defeated again. Now, Jeremiah is thrown into the mix. He is connected to LA, who is connected to TC. Jerry's got his own internal demons that we haven't even seen yet. If the Land's Earth continues, it has been speculated that it will be because of Jerry's remaking of the Earth/Time/Universe/etc. That's ending one. The problem with this is that Jerry has a bullet hole in him. Sooooo....

Second, if everything is a projection of TC's mind, by sharing and association, everything is a projection (maybe for different reasons) of both LA and Jerry-boy. Thus, if Jerry is dead in the real world, then the only way to end everything, since all those carrying the notions of the Land's Earth will be dead, is for the Land and its Universe to die completely and forever as well.

What does everyone think?

SkurjMaster wrote:Dear All,

There has been much discussion here and I assume in other threads, that TC and LF are one. TC says it and SRD has pointed it out. Couple this with the following partial quote from the Gradual Interview

"Once you accept the notion that all of these characters find their genesis in Covenant's mind, the explanation is clear. Naturally they know all the words he knows."

and I come down to only two possible outcomes for this series.

First, TC was our Un-believing anit-hero in Chrons 1. He defeats LF. In Chrons 2 he encounters LA, with her own inner despite. She shares his experience in the Land, as if they are sharing a dream. LF defeated again. Now, Jeremiah is thrown into the mix. He is connected to LA, who is connected to TC. Jerry's got his own internal demons that we haven't even seen yet. If the Land's Earth continues, it has been speculated that it will be because of Jerry's remaking of the Earth/Time/Universe/etc. That's ending one. The problem with this is that Jerry has a bullet hole in him. Sooooo....

Second, if everything is a projection of TC's mind, by sharing and association, everything is a projection (maybe for different reasons) of both LA and Jerry-boy. Thus, if Jerry is dead in the real world, then the only way to end everything, since all those carrying the notions of the Land's Earth will be dead, is for the Land and its Universe to die completely and forever as well.

What does everyone think?

Everything has to die. I think that's true of the Land as well.

. . . Without forbidding, there is too little time

The Battle of Mount Thunder

Add:

One murderous Giant with a anti Sandgorgon Sword,

A collection of Sand Gorgons,

Roger, Cavewights and assorted others,

Lord Foul,

She Who Must Be Obeyed (plus Elena and others waiting to spring trap)

Linden Avery and assorted others,

Mad Giant goes through Sandgorgons et all to get at LA

The bad guys are about to win

However,



. . . Their coming, the Haurchai are coming

This enables TC to assimilate LF and LA takes on SWMBO (now under the control of Elena overmind.

As TC/LA absorbs their negative aspects, Jerry through a mysterious power sends them both back into the past, thus completing time loop.

He then remakes the demondim spawn that survive so they become natural creatures of this world.

Umm. I think there is a big difference between what Covenant does and the rest of the dead.
When someone from the Land comes to Andelain, they meet their shades.
The shades are not walking willy nilly over the Land giving wisdom and opposing Lord Foul. There are Laws to things.
When Kevin kills Elena, he is acting as he was Commanded to act.
When Elena commands Foul's army from afar and attacks the Colossus, she is doing as she is commanded.
The dead of the land arw brought to their people by some complusion. Apparently, TC was the first one who didn't go mad at the sight, and what the dead are allowed to do can kick in.
Apparently there is some communication between the ur-viles and the Dead, but no action on the part of the dead, merely a conveyance of information. They are also prohibited from telling him what Vain is. I think that could suggest the ur-viles, seeing what's going on in Andelain, compelled the Dead back to tell them of Vain.
So the Dead are commanded by something to come back. Penance for Elena's breaking of the Law. But the really can't act.
But Covenant, while he chooses to really do nothing, he chooses to do a nothing that provokes Foul and causes Foul to weaken himself.

Here's how I like to think about it:

Breaking the Law of Death allowed the Dead to be brought back, but as tools rather than as people. Dead Kevin didn't "act" because he didn't *choose*. He attacked Foul on Elena's orders, and he attacked Elena on Foul's orders. Meanwhile, Covenant's Dead only appeared because he summoned them, and they only advised. Furthermore, even their ability to speak must have been limited. We know this because IIRC there was no question about their advice suberting Covenant's freedom, as Linden's dead worry about later.

Breaking the Law of Life is what allows the Dead to be people rather than tools. Hollian didn't just float around taking orders or advising--she lived freely. And Covenant couldn't have defeated Foul in WGW if he didn't retain his freedom. I don't have my books with me, but IIRC he says fairly explicitly that if the Law of Life had been intact, Foul could have commanded him the way he commanded Kevin.

TL;DR: The Law of Death is something like "The dead are dead" (they don't move, talk, or fight). The Law of Life is "Only the living live" (learn, grow, choose).

I've just watched the never-ending story. Before you laugh I saw saw very interesting parallels in what might be coming in tld!!

jonnyredleader wrote:I've just watched the never-ending story. Before you laugh I saw saw very interesting parallels in what might be coming in tld!!

Yes, but Linden won't be riding the Worm through the rubble of the Land's destruction, it'll be a gryphon.

Lol maybe!
I noticed the worm eating itself in the medallion worn by the hero symbolizing the new eating the old i.e never-ending. I though that was an important clue and maybe intentional in the worms creation.
Also the nothingness was consuming the land and it came from people no longer dreaming and hoping, in it's place was despair which made it easier to control people. Could this be TC own subconscious destroying his imagination and hope to deal with the fact based life needed to live with leprosy?
Also lastly the film ended with the message that the land lives on in the reader and I thought of the song "something there is in beauty". Tenuous links? Probably but it was made in 1984 so I thought maybe a seed was planted after WGW.

Just remembered. SRD stated he based the worm on the Norse legend worm eating itself just like the medallion. Plus.... The way to save the land was to give the empress a new name..... Isn't that something about to happen....SWMNBN?
Lol ok it's very tenuous!!!!!

As I said before I think the Land will end a la Narnia with Jeremiah leading all the nice people to a new land of milk & honey.....

I also think that Lord Foul is the inner despiser of the Creator .... hence how he always makes a come back!

one can also cite the events with Kevin's shade in TIW under Skyweir.

And Elena's ghost in TPTP certainly was not passive. She using the Staff to levy Foul's Winter on the Land, and she tried to kill TC.

jonnyredleader wrote:Just remembered. SRD stated he based the worm on the Norse legend worm eating itself just like the medallion. Plus.... The way to save the land was to give the empress a new name..... Isn't that something about to happen....SWMNBN?
Lol ok it's very tenuous!!!!!

Everything about the ending is tenuous at this point, but that actually sounds pretty logical. Naming SHE was supposedly as destructive as awakening the Worm, but considering who made that claim, it may be just the opposite case: the Land's salvation.

Or maybe it will lead SHE to duke it out with the Worm. After all, they seem to be equally powerful beings and nobody else is a match for the WOTWE.

Not sure if this constitutes a spoiler but I noticed something at the bottom of the first paragraph of page 124 of the wounded land, gives you a possible ending intention to the final book? hmmmmm

I have a couple different editions, but that page/paragraph reference is not leading me to the right place. I suspect that the flow of the text varies from country to country and from hardback to paperback.

Can you (with spoiler tags, if you want...but this is a forum where we know spoilers are part of the territory) be more specific, JRL?

I wouldn't worry about using spoilers for something posted in tWL

Slowly his mind filled with a brightness more fearsome and punishing than any night. He opposed it as if he were a fragment of the last kind dark which healed and renewed.....he then goes on to tell linden about the creation of the land.[/spoiler]