Kevin's Watch

What 'guest' said!

Quite a coincidence.

TLF,
There are, of course, other religions that you might get to know. Some of the Eastern religions are quite different, making you consider the idea of religion in different ways. Who knows, maybe that kind of thing would work for you.

I've often thought that things that are common to a large percentage of religions might be truths. Debateable, but maybe a place to start looking?

Anonymous wrote:I just find it hard to believe that a being Powerful enough to create a Universe always existed.

My conclusion has become that god(s) are man made.

But hey, I could be wrong. But even if I am I don't believe we suffer afterward because puny beings like ourselves refused to believe in an arrogant god.

And I can't accept that my mind outlives my brain.

So the universe just created itself? I'd like to see an apple create itself. That shouldn't be too hard in comparison to the universe. I'm not saying a seed planted, growing into a tree either. I'm saying I'd like to see an apple create itself, you know, like the universe in the big bang *****THEORY******. I find that faith in chance is far more groundless than faith in God, but at least with faith in God people have hope.

As far as you mind outliving your brain; that's kind of missing the point don't you think? Can't you even say "soul"?

At any rate, we can't all be just a simple measure of our own experiences and the rest chromosomes. There has to be more. Look at twins. They have the same chromosomes and end up becoming quite different. It can't just be our experiences either, because if then there are two people who have very simular experiences and do not both end up raping Lena because one of them doesn't even have that compulsion, then there is something else that is intangible which is at work. The soul. That which makes us curious or humorous or furious or any other ious you want to apply. It is a shape of our uniqueness which we will continue on with because we were created to be immortal, to live in heaven. This personality will not be a clone of Christ singing God is great 24/7 for billions of years, but will instead be a part of new creations and traveling the universe and being without sin, to lead other places and other creations, to sing when we want to and we will want to. Is that such a thing to fear? We won't have to worry about choosing God because we chose him when we lived on earth as creations within time. Once the universe is destroyed and remade, there will be no more choosing ourselves or choosing Satan or some other god. The time of choices is now. Choose wisely, lest you get your wish and become nothing.

this may be a little off topic, but what I don't understand is why religious people (I know, not all of them) don't believe in the big bang theory... why can't they beleive that maybe God caused the big bang? Same goes for evolution.

Ah, I've had this arguement with many people before. Many fundementalists literally interpret the bible meaning God created the world in 7 days and so on.
As for evolution, God supposedly created man in his own image leaving no room for all our more primitive ancestors. Most tend to argue that we couldn't have possibly evolved from primates yet they have no concept of how evolution actually works or they attack the fossil record.

I believe in God, but I also believe in science. I think that God was the cause of the Big Bang, and that evolution is one of the tools God uses. If mankind was made in God's image, it would not necessarily be physically in the image, but possibly spiritually...

Kinslaughterer wrote:Ah, I've had this arguement with many people before. Many fundementalists literally interpret the bible meaning God created the world in 7 days and so on.
As for evolution, God supposedly created man in his own image leaving no room for all our more primitive ancestors. Most tend to argue that we couldn't have possibly evolved from primates yet they have no concept of how evolution actually works or they attack the fossil record.

The only problem with that is evolution doesn't make any sense. The reason it doesn't make any sense is because it suggests the impossible.

A creature species has thousands of genetic mistakes, accidents if you will. One of these accidents has the possibility of being favorable if the genetic alterations continue along this line for thousands of years, each generation slowly changing toward this eventual adaptation. Take anything, a skunk's smell, an elephant's trunk, a box jellyfish's spines and toxins, anything you want to consider at all. It doesn't matter. Use dinosaurs. Anything.

Ok, so during the thousands and thousands of years that an elephant species is developing this trunk, it is useless for thousands of years, and in fact it is in the way of their survival. Please explain that!??!?!?

The point is that evolution is silly. It implies that genes think of generations. I am utterly astounded that people who claim to be sane and intelligent will blindly accept anything the media, populace, and education factories pump out such as genes thinking and continuing to change each generation of a species as if it had the end result "creatively planned" out. And then these very same people will say that anyone who believes in God is educationally challenged.

If you believe that then I suggest that you visit this site & start opening your mind. People with closed minds aren't willing to accept any view except that which has been ingrained into them from birth. There are other choices out there which make more sense. The religion of science is just another god among the many other false gods.

www.innercite.com/~tstout/cs/pog_a.shtml

Well my closed minded adversary, Evolutionary jumps have occured at many recorded points in history, some dramatic and in very short span.
For instance, African Americans developed sickle shaped blood cells to help prevent malaria unfortunately deformed cells break down faster causing sickle cell anemia. They developed this in a matter of a few hundred years and will probably eliminate it in a few hundred more since malaria is no longer a threat in the U.S.

Elephants evolved trunks to spray water on themselves and cool off in the progressive hotter African savannah. As the temperature increased and the water level lowered those elephants with the longest trunks survived and the adaptation was passed on by natural selection.

Unfortunately many hundreds of thousands of species are now extinct including the dinosaurs. Evolution is simply a change and not necessarily a good one. Those species that remain have been very fortunate that things worked out their way. Did God simply plan on killing literally millions of animals?

Why am I arguing with you? Prove evolution doesn't exist. Or at least make an argument with evidence. I can show you thousands of pieces of evidence that it does.

I can't help but wonder what causes one to become so amazingly nasty toward those who disagree with him/her.

It should also be pointed out that unrelenting insults probably do NOT sway people to your side of the debate. Or is that not the reason for your posts? The insults could, I suppose, be an end in themselves.

But regarding evolution, the idea is that the trunk is the result of LOTS of tiny changes, each of which was of some benefit. I don't know enough about the trunk, so I can't really say, but here's something about the eye that explains the concept.

There could have been a time when some part of an animal's brain mutated, and interpreted a nerve's signal in a new way - what would be extremely primitive vision. That, all by itself, is a benefit. The animal can perceive some slight bit of motion. As most animals do, it's immediate reaction is to bolt for safety. Basically, it has perceived a predator in a new way, a way that the predator cannot counter. So it lives. And it lives longer than its brothers and sisters, and so reproduces more often, spreading this new gizmo.

Next, at some point, the area that that nerve ending is in mutates, so that the nerve is at the bottom of a tiny depression. That means that, if the animal perceives motion, it knows which direction it is coming from. So, instead of blindly bolting for what it hopes is safety, sometimes running smack into the predator, it runs AWAY from the predator. This is also a clear advantage. Which means it lives longer than its siblings, and reproduces more than its fair share.

Next, a bit of gunk is found on this nerve ending. This acts as a lens. The animal begins to see if the moving thing is a predator that needs to be avoided, or something to eat.

And on and on, each little thing being added over time.

Now don't start in about specifics. I don't know ANY of them. I've doubtless given a VERY simplified account of the evolution of the eye. My only point is to show that the theory doesn't say that a fully-formed, but useless, eye is suddenly there, which then improves bit by bit over millions of years. That is a ridiculous theory, and no scientist believes it. That's the theory that is ONLY found published by religious groups who are trying to disprove evolution. But disproving an insane version of evolution does not disprove evolution.

Kinslaughterer wrote: Elephants evolved trunks to spray water on themselves and cool off in the progressive hotter African savannah. As the temperature increased and the water level lowered those elephants with the longest trunks survived and the adaptation was passed on by natural selection.

Ok, so let's say for the benefit of my doubt, that this was the end result the genes "desired".

And at what point does an evolutionary mistake become a good accident, an accident that has a mind of its own which can think through its descendants to a future incarnation of what it will eventually be??????? That's what evolution suggests and that's why it is the science of the impossible. Are you trying to suggest to me that at some indistinct point in history an elephant was born with genes which would alter its existence over time to become a beast with the trunk it has today?

For tens of thousands of years, they had a large nose which was hardly a trunk, was unable to grasp much of anything, and may have been unsuitable for hosing themselves down. My point is you entertain thoughts that you are intelligent and then miss the whole process of what you are saying in the first place. For tens of thousands of years this growing appendage would have been useless and would have hampered the survival of the species.

If you aren't going to believe in God, then at least find something more logical than a series of future-thinking genetic accidents.

Also for the record, I really don't care one way or another if you end up believing in God. I don't know you & never will know you. You might be a really great person that helps children and old ladies and once saved a dog from drowning in a lake. Then again, you might be a guy that beats his wife, drinks too much, and tried to run over a dog with his car. The point is that I don't care about you, personally. I can't and I don't have any delusions that I can, especially though this poor portal behind which so many of you hide together in your little cliques, prepared to mob up on anyone that disagrees with *****your***** views.

The reason I'm debating this at all is that I know that soon I'll have the opportunity to talk to someone that I get to know in person, someone who doesn't have a closed mind & can think outside of the box. So I'm sharpening my viewpoint on your dull wit.

The difference between me and you is that I'm willing to believe anything as long as it isn't stupid. Evolution is illogical and makes no sense. Genes don't think into descendants that aren't even born yet. That's not thinking! If you come up with a compelling reason why the universe suddenly started, I'm willing to listen to that. If you come up with a reason that all life is just an incredible nearly infinity to one lottery ticket, then I'm ready to listen. But I will not accept a creative deformation process over a period of time just because you throw so much time at something that it begins to take on a magical aspect of possibility. Given enough time, say 400 trillion years, amoebas could be space pilots in charge of the whole galaxy. Yeah, yeah, sure, I guess so. Great logic there. Do you know what that is? It's called faith in the unknown. You're just as willing to believe in impossibilities, but you aren't about to accept that a Creator did it? Isn't that hypocritical? You'll accept 100% chance but not God? You are choosing to believe in something you cannot prove, theories, instead of something you cannot prove, God. Why not believe in nothing? At least you would be more honest about your unbelief.

Zephalephelah wrote: For tens of thousands of years this growing appendage would have been useless and would have hampered the survival of the species.

If you aren't going to believe in God, then at least find something more logical than a series of future-thinking genetic accidents.

No, Kin said it evolves slowly, each time making a slight improvement. It doens't just pop up and hang for thousands of years until it suddenly has a use.

Ack that was me (the leper fairy) but it won't let me sign it for some reason.

Anonymous wrote:

Zephalephelah wrote: For tens of thousands of years this growing appendage would have been useless and would have hampered the survival of the species.

If you aren't going to believe in God, then at least find something more logical than a series of future-thinking genetic accidents.

No, Kin said it evolves slowly, each time making a slight improvement. It doens't just pop up and hang for thousands of years until it suddenly has a use.

I didn't say that. I'm following the "logic" that it would require a great deal of fortunate mistakes to make a trunk as good as it is today. OR FOR THAT MATTER, THE ELEPHANT TO BEGIN WITH!

Yeah, doesn't make any sense does it? This nose becoming longer & longer, not having any use until it was nearly complete. The whole shifting on the way there based on a mistake that the creative & ever so intelligent genes decide that they will make a new thing, a trunk. It will take many generations and they will think ahead. Maybe the intelligent genes convince the elephant that it must go lie down & hibernate like a bear for 90% of its life, you know since it can't spray itself to keep cool, since it can't grab food with its trunk because its just a big fat nose for a long time, so the great genes tell the brain, go on hither to mountains and find caves where you will sleep. Um... you know, I'm convinced. Thanks!

You're welcome

The thing is, Zeph, no one has ever said that genetic evolution is *planned*. It is random chance. Perhaps since you disagree withy evolution, and most likely think a design theory more likely, it seems easier to accept that the final form is the one a species was meant to reach, however this is in no way the case. The form of a species is a collection of the most effective components for survival, along with a few other bits that used to be useful (think of the appendix - for herbivores it breaks down plant material to make it digestible. When apes became carnivorous they didn't need the appendix, but it wasn't in the way or causing a problem, so it remained, getting less and less active as those with faulty appendixes continued to survive and put their genes in the gene pool).
There is never an intended final product of evolution, just a small change that makes it better, then another small change that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the first small change, etc...
In fact, an only recently acknowledged point about evolution is that the way a species alters it's environment can influence evolution by changing the things that can prevent survival... Evolution then does the inverse, by changing the way the environment is affected by a species prescence...

Zephalephelah wrote:...especially though this poor portal behind which so many of you hide together in your little cliques...

So long as everybody remembers who's King!

Right, it's time Biomedical Sciences Man had a look at some of these arguments.

Kinslaughterer wrote:I'm leaning toward yes. Nearly every culture that has ever existed on earth has a form of divinity. Some areas of the brain, which have their own unique strands of DNA, are only stimulated by religious experiences.

Just to tighten up your argument really. An individual's DNA is identical in every cell in their body (well, except maybe in the germ-line and mutants), what makes each cell different is that the parts of the DNA not needed in that cell are de-activated. It would be more correct to say that portions of the genome are can only be activated in the brain cells of individuals who have been stimulated by a religious experience.

guest wrote:No, Kin said it evolves slowly, each time making a slight improvement. It doens't just pop up and hang for thousands of years until it suddenly has a use.

It's important to remember that evolution cuts both ways. In the case of an elephant's trunk, it will have been the result of generations of elephants, and in each of those generations some elephants will have had a longer nose that enabled them to feed more effectively, survive harsh times and sire numerous offspring.
At the same time there would have been elephants with a shorter than average nose who couldn't feed as effectively and therefore died without potentiating their genes.

And finally...

The appendix is not entirely without function in higher primates and humans, it is used by the immune system to expose cells to the bacteria living in the gut. You can quite happily survive without it of course, but your immune system won't be quite as sharp.

By the way, evolution is a fact.

Darwin's Theory Of Evolution is not evolution. In the same way, the theory that the Earth orbits the Sun is not the Earth orbiting the Sun--it is a description and explanation of it.

The theory of evolution is an explanation of the facts of evolution.

If nobody had ever developed the theory, it would not change that fact that living things evolve over time--evolution happens whether there is a theory or not.