10 Fantasy Sagas That Are Wronger Than Twilight

Post by **sgt.null** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:37 pm

like Alice in Wonderland - words mean what we say they mean.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:37 am

Murrin wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:I've seen a few on the shelves, but never read any. Not even Pern. Is the fact that they're all written by women a reflection on whoever compiled this list? Or is it more indicative of the type of fantasy currently being written by women? Is there fantasy currently being written by women that's not soft-core porn?
Try not to fall into the trap of saying things like that, Fist. Been reading a few things just recently on the topic, actually.

On the subject of the invisibility of women writers:
www.cheryl-morgan.com/?p=10805

Helpful link - list of good female fantasy writers:
users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/298410.html

I wasn't making any statements. Just asking. Le Guin is among my handful of favorite authors. I've only read a few other fantasy things by female authors, but not anything that's come out recently. This article sorta makes it look like today's women in fantasy are overwhelmingly writing soft-core porn. Is Harry Potter the exception; or is the article's author's vision skewed? The majority of the books on the fantasy/sci-fi shelves in my local B&N and Borders are by women I've never heard of. I've been very intrigued by Karen Miller's, but haven't gotten to them yet.

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:00 pm

Okay then; as my post implied, the answers to your original questions are no, no, and yes.

Your post just served as a jumping off point for me to broach the subject, really. That link to Cheryl Morgan's blog describes the problem, and the second link is part of the solution.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:39 pm

I gotcha.

I've heard of several of the authors listed in the initial entry and comments of your second link, though I've only read a few. I wish I could read faster than I can. Very annoying to have so much I'll never get to.

Post by **Akasri** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:22 am

I read Grunts - it's actually wasn't all that bad.

I've read the first few Pern books, just couldn't get into them enough to keep reading the series past book 3

The Laurell K Hamilton books are actually very strange from the get go. I've only read the first 2, but I hear they get very kinky later on.

The rest, I've never heard of.

Post by **stonemaybe** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:20 am

I can think of various books that deserve to be on that list alot more (morer?

) than some mentioned. Anyone read Vardeman's War of Power series? How about Garton's Crucifax?

I wonder if anyone here has read Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire?

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:48 am

What are you thinking of from ASoIaF? I can't bring to mind anything that would be quite as bad as the examples in the article.

Post by **Akasri** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:21 pm

Murrin wrote:What are you thinking of from ASoIaF? I can't bring to mind anything that would be quite as bad as the examples in the article.

Other than the incest and gang rapes... but yeah, it's not as bad as some of the ones in that article.

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:24 pm

I think the point is less what happens than how it is treated. The difference between a rape scene, and a rape scene where the woman decides that if she can't stop it she might as well enjoy it (I'm looking at you, Terry Goodkind).

Post by **stonemaybe** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:50 pm

Akasri wrote:
Murrin wrote:What are you thinking of from ASoIaF? I can't bring to mind anything that would be quite as bad as the examples in the article.
Other than the incest and gang rapes... but yeah, it's not as bad as some of the ones in that article.

It depends where your taboo lies, doesn't it? Personally, I find the incest in ASoIaF more disturbing than the homosexual side of McCaffreys books. In her Pern books, sex is part of the society, Weyr-life, homo- or hetero- is insignificant. It is mentioned to give you a background, it is not part of the plotline. In ASoIaF, the incest is a key part of the storyline.

Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:14 am

I'd rather go with some Oscar Wilde's variant - "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all." I do not agree completely, but attempts to impose some nessesary morals on writing don't seem right to me.

Another thing is that, though I may be be wrong, for I haven't read a single one of those, from the synopses (filled with "originality" and "creativity") they look like quite a sample for the last part of the quote, that is, badly written. That's all.

Post by **[Syl]** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:12 am

Murrin wrote:I think the point is less what happens than how it is treated. The difference between a rape scene, and a rape scene where the woman decides that if she can't stop it she might as well enjoy it (I'm looking at you, Terry Goodkind).

Can't believe I didn't think of that until halfway through that sentence. And then there was the way the women got the negative magic.

I think Terry must have had to kill something beautiful inside himself to write the scene where he turns the sword white. Finally, an explanation for the pony tail.

Post by **Holsety** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:20 pm

From what my friend on a Fire Embem forum told me about twilight, it has a point in the book where the vampire and main heroine's newly born child is "imprinted" on the werewolf rival. This means that the baby, moments after emerging from its mother's womb, develops a special bond of love with the werewolf and ages at an accelearted rate into sexual maturity to be with him.

What the HELL!

Ya. I really didn't have a problem with Twilight before then, but I'm pretty sure that's more screwed up than at least some of the things on that list, though not first one listed.

Post by **deer of the dawn** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:58 am

Holsety, please watch the f-bomb (edit: Thanks for changing! ). Anyone ever read Maia by, um, the guy who wrote Watership Down? (Sorry, sleep-deprived in an airport right now) I mean, that was 25 years ago but I still count it as the wrongest book I ever finished.[/i]

Post by **Cambo** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:21 pm

Mainly not fantasy, but some of Stephen King's scenes get pretty messed up.
It spoiler:

Spoiler

The 6M 1F pubescent orgy at the end of It?

Dark Tower spoiler:

Spoiler

The wide awake and aware baby catching his lip on Susannah's clitoris as he is born? I mean, I guess sometimes that happens, but why put it in there?

Tommyknockers spoiler:

Spoiler

Vagina tentacles?!

Post by **Holsety** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:06 am

deer of the dawn wrote:Holsety, please watch the f-bomb.

Sorry about that. It's just that it kinda freaked me out when I heard about it. Kinda carried over to freaking me out here. Edited in case any other posters come on here who aren't really comfortable with that kinda language. I am such a master of doublethink, considering that I am caring about profanity in a topic like this.

Spoiler
The wide awake and aware baby catching his lip on Susannah's clitoris as he is born? I mean, I guess sometimes that happens, but why put it in there?

Wait, when exactly does that happen. That's weird.

Spoiler
Vagina tentacles?!

Sexist. You have no problem with tentacles as long as they are phallic, huh.

Post by **Cambo** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:47 pm

Well, there go my spoiler tags.

Holsety wrote:Sexist. You have no problem with tentacles as long as they are phallic, huh.

I have no problem with phallic symbolism, no. I have no problem with vaginal symbolism either (think Ursula in Disney's Little Mermaid). I find both more amusing than disturbing.

But these tentacles weren't symbolising genitalia. The tentacles literally emerged from the character's vagina. If memory serves correctly, she used them as a weapon. They may also have been poisonous in some way (it's been a while since I read the Tommyknockers, not King at his best).

Spoiler

And the baby thing happens in the birth scene in Song of Susannah

Post by **Holsety** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:05 pm

But these tentacles weren't symbolising genitalia. The tentacles literally emerged from the character's vagina. If memory serves correctly, she used them as a weapon. They may also have been poisonous in some way (it's been a while since I read the Tommyknockers, not King at his best).

OK. Well, it's ALL weird but that's weird.

Sorry about the spoiler tags, I will replace them. It comes from copy and paste quoting.

Also, perhaps I should have communicated this with emoticons, but my calling you a sexist was in jest! You seemed to take it somewhat seriously, so... XD

When I said "when does that happen" it was in response to you saying that the thing with the baby happens sometimes. I had no idea that happened. Weird thing to mention. It just, never occurred to me.

Post by **Cambo** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:24 am

Heh, I should have emoticonned as well, I was well aware you were jesting, and it did make me chuckle. So, no hard feelings!

As for the birthing thing, it had never occurred to me either, until I read the scene. My comment just meant "well, when you think about it, that's phycically possible, so there's a good chance it actually happens." But that it occurred to King not only as a possibility, but as something to put in his book, as a completely isolated incident, is what I find weird!

Post by **deer of the dawn** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:05 am

Okay, having given birth a couple times, sorry guys but everything down there is so stretched out, there IS no clitoris or any other identifiable body parts at the moment of the head coming out. That has to be a weird, wishful guy-fantasy. Mom is so busy roaring she wouldn't care anyway. She is utterly inviolable. Maybe that's King's point, to step on the feminine creative power of the moment. (and that from a born-again Christian!)

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10 Fantasy Sagas That Are Wronger Than Twilight