Kevin's Watch

ussusimiel wrote:
Hi again lucimay!

And we miscommunicate/disagree again

A few points with regard to the above. Firstly, there is bound to be a certain amount of expectation when a writer is writing a series rather than stand-alone novels. I think that frustration is only human when a story is not finished. Secondly, I have a feeling that the relationship between writer and reader/fan has changed significantly over the last number of years most probably due to marketing pressure from publishers. In this new relationship fans may have developed a unreasonable level 'entitlement'.

Finally, the Internet allows a level of interaction that was previously unimaginable, KW and the GI are examples of this. So, it is much more likely that people are going to publicly say what they think. And, IMO, fans talking among themselves are entitled to say what they like. It the same as any conversation that people have. Addressing criticisms and judgements directly to and at the author is a totally different thing and here I am in complete accord with you. It's presumptous and rude. If you have that sort of a problem with a writer stop buying their books!
u.

[re bolded text: agree wholeheartedly!]


yes yes nod nod, i know i can get sort of get blacknwhite on these kind of things. you're absolutely right, it's to be expected that discussion among friends (be it internet or otherwise) is going to elicit opinion, good and bad regarding the expectations one has with writers, musicians, architects, politicians, etc.

that is where the bone sticks in my craw. expectations. entitlement.
well i've said my piece, you know what i mean. i don't think i need explain FURTHER!

i'll try to practice what i preach and not exPECT others to adhere to
MY expectations of them!

lucimay wrote:[re bolded text: agree wholeheartedly!]

And we are in accord once more.

It is like a stately gavotte. May I have the next dance?

u.

u wrote:It is like a stately gavotte

I first read that as garotte! You have to be careful with luci, she's dangerous!

Oh dear! Nobody told me that there were female Forestals

I hope she doesn't have a particular hunger for the kind of spirit that inhabits me

My neck is feeling itchy! I'm having trouble breathing!
I'm off to hide until it's safe to come out

there is a third chronicles? no one has made me aware of that.

the biggest division on this here watch is me on the comic bood board and everyone else. . .

ussusimiel wrote: When I saw the pictures from the different Elohimfest I was delighted to see that there was none of the dressing up that goes on at conventions and the like. It told me a lot.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with dressing up or cosplaying a character; it hardly differs from SCA/historical re-enacting, LARP, or the like.

As for GRRM...

Didn't get a chance to attend Finncon 2009 where GRRM signed his books the previous time (and which would've been a great opportunity for cosplaying, now that this matter popped up ) but he did briefly appear in my city the same year, and seemed like a really pleasant person. Answered questions in the middle of the signing queue, wrote dedications, posed for photos with fans. Over the years, I've seen ugly examples of this 'fan grudge' erupting on Livejournal and other social media; if I remember correctly, there's at least one LJ blog dedicated to taunt him over the slow progress of ADWD (not to mention on Amazon where some clever sods pre-rated the book with a single star due to the same reason). Don't understand this sort of behavior and never will. Alright, it's been slightly disappointing to see the release date changing 4-6 times since 2009, but come on, it's scarcely the end of the known universe if a work of fiction takes a bit longer to draft than originally expected.

ussusimiel wrote:I may have to revisit the Gap series. I think I read four of them before I stopped

This may be the strangest sentence I have read on the Watch.

As for GRRM, I've never read the series, but while I can well imagine the fans' frustration, I think Gemmel put it best:

David Gemmel wrote:George RR Martin is not your bitch

Zorm wrote:ussusimiel wrote:

When I saw the pictures from the different Elohimfest I was delighted to see that there was none of the dressing up that goes on at conventions and the like. It told me a lot.


Personally I don't see anything wrong with dressing up or cosplaying a character; it hardly differs from SCA/historical re-enacting, LARP, or the like.

Hi Zorm, good to talk to you again!

I don't have anything against it per se. But the absence of it tells me that the people involved are focused on the work and the writer rather than putting their energy into ancilliary stuff. This can make all the difference.

u.

sarge wrote:there is a third chronicles? no one has made me aware of that.

To quote John McEnroe, "You can't be serious!!?"

ussusimiel wrote:

lucimay wrote: [re bolded text: agree wholeheartedly!]

And we are in accord once more.

It is like a stately gavotte. May I have the next dance?

u.

only if you take that squash off your head.

lucimay wrote:

ussusimiel wrote:

lucimay wrote: [re bolded text: agree wholeheartedly!]

And we are in accord once more.

It is like a stately gavotte. May I have the next dance?

u.

only if you take that squash off your head.

That squash is my head

ussusimiel wrote:

lucimay wrote:

ussusimiel wrote: And we are in accord once more.

It is like a stately gavotte. May I have the next dance?

u.

only if you take that squash off your head.

That squash is my head

Then neither gavotte nor garotte is appropriate...baking with brown sugar and butter, chop and whip, or sliced for a nice soup or antipasto are the only options.

GRRM may not be my bitch, but he is a bitch. And like it or not, he is his readership's bitch, since they pay his mortgage.

Yeah, that's right. I'm one of them. I think it's shitty for an author to double the release time between installments in a series, especially with something of the disappointing calibre as AFfC (over ten years between decent novels, on a schedule, and people just accept that?). I don't care if it takes 14 years to write it, but there are reasons publishers demand a schedule. Martin doesn't get a break just because he doesn't suck.

"What do you mean 'because he doesn't suck,' Syl?" I mean that nobody here likely supports the travesty that the Wheel of Time turned into, even if the new guy is doing a decent job at salvaging the story. A readership has every right to be pissed off at an author who mangles a story, devolves it into a tangled, asinine mess because they lack the authorial ability to maintain control of their creation (Frankenstein wasn't a dick because he made his monster. He was a dick because he pussied out when he saw what he made and let it lead a misreable life that also ruined the lives of other people).

Or put it this way. Many great authors have gone on to write shitty books. That doesn't make them bad authors, though it does mean that book is going to get torn up by the critics and that the author will have to work that much harder to make his next book a success. But authors like Martin, who start off series strongly but fail to deliver on their initial promise, get all the advantages of writing a best-seller - increased audience, bigger contracts, etc., with little of the risk of writing flops (alienating the audience). Sure, there's no gun to anyone's head to finish the story, but that doesn't mean the reader hasn't made a significant, respectable commitment in time and money that shouldn't be treated in good faith by the author.

It's like saying you can't be mad at a band for releasing all their good songs on the radio while the other 75% of the album is crap. It also devalues the achievement of authors that consistently deliver as good or greater quality novels in a series.

I'm not saying that Martin is a hack, the worst writer ever, or even that I won't continue to read his books (when I get around to it). I am saying that readers have a right to be pissed, and he doesn't get a pass where authors like Jordan, Goodkind, or, hell, even Piers Anthony do not, just because we consider him 'more worthy.'

Considering I haven't yet finished AATE, Donaldson himself may fall into this category somewhat. The difference is, Donaldson sticks to a schedule. He's human, and he may fail, and I wouldn't hold that against him. Same if he died (god forbid) before finishing the last book. I'd be disappointed, but either way, he'd be living up (no pun intended) to his end of the contract. Wolfe's last Latro book was an utter disappointment, but I didn't spend ten years (17, actually) waiting for it.

On principle, I disagree with you Syl. Mainly because, it is the author's story, and the author ought to be able to tell it how he/she wishes. If they are able to keep a time schedule, great! If it takes them several years to get it the way the want it, that's their choice too. If they want it to be told through hundreds of pages of braid pulling, hey, it's their vision! (I think that covers everything )

My point being, this is their work. And if we want their work, it should be as they have done it. Just because it doesn't follow what we want it to follow, or is written as we would write it, or is more superfluous then we want, doesn't mean they should cave in to our demands. I mean, we're reading their work, fer chrissake! How long did it take Tolkien to write LotR? Tennyson to write Idylls of the King? Homer the Illiad and the Odyssey? Milton Paradise Lost? Chaucer never finished Canterbury tales and it's still considered a classic, Dickens died before finishing that Drood novel and he's still considered a great author. Miguel Cervantes took part two of Don Quixote into a completely different direction than his humorous first part, and it's considered the first (and best) modern novel!

It seems as if greatness is built on breaking reader's expectations.

ussusimiel wrote: I may have to revisit the Gap series. I think I read four of them before I stopped

DON'T STOP!

You march straight to your nearest bookstore this very instant and buy "This Day All Gods Die." You can NOT stop reading before you finish it!

Hmm... no "whipped" smiley... I suppose I'll have to make do with a trout.

Rigel wrote:

ussusimiel wrote: I may have to revisit the Gap series. I think I read four of them before I stopped

DON'T STOP!

You march straight to your nearest bookstore this very instant and buy "This Day All Gods Die." You can NOT stop reading before you finish it!

Hmm... no "whipped" smiley... I suppose I'll have to make do with a trout.

Learn the smiley menu!

[Syl] wrote: Considering I haven't yet finished AATE, Donaldson himself may fall into this category somewhat. The difference is, Donaldson sticks to a schedule. He's human, and he may fail, and I wouldn't hold that against him. Same if he died (god forbid) before finishing the last book. I'd be disappointed, but either way, he'd be living up (no pun intended) to his end of the contract. Wolfe's last Latro book was an utter disappointment, but I didn't spend ten years (17, actually) waiting for it.

You know, having read what Donaldson wrote about his impetus for writing the Last Chrons, I think there's a certain necessity to action.

It's like the question of how to get past writer's block. You get past the block by writing- it doesn't matter if it's good or bad writing, just the act of writing will help you get over it.

At a certain point in time, you have to put all your fears and concerns aside and say, "I'm going to act."

In contrast with that, two auteurs who showed great early promise, George Lucas and James Cameron, both went several years without producing anything. Then, when they finally did return to making films, they both made gigantic, bloated messes that have completely destroyed my respect for them.

I'm glad Donaldson never stopped writing. Sure, he was writing other things for a while, but he was still writing. (In fact, two of those 'other things' are among my favorites of his work: The Gap series, and the short story 'Penance')

It's only their work until they sell it, and then it's ours. Martin doesn't own the space his work takes up in my brain. I do. Authorial intent, if not the author, is dead (and this kind of thing is exactly what the fanboys on WOTmania said up until mid-September, 2007).

Tolkien, for all his faults, submitted a complete manuscript for Lord of the Rings. The publisher split it up. Many diehard Tolkien fans argue that the Silmarillion and other unfinished works at the time of his death aren't canon for precisely that reason, and won't accept the things put together from his notes just because of authorial intent.

By most accounts, it took "Homer" (no such author likely existed) a few hundred years to compile all the stories of the Iliad and the Odyssey. Along the same lines, nobody's really upset that the original creator of Batman (won't pretend to know who) hasn't finished the series yet.

Can't say about Tennyson. Was he publishing on a schedule? Did he release the novel in installments? Look how pissed people got when Doyle killed Holmes. How do you think they would have reacted if he just walked away from releasing the serial for 5 years, mid-story? Would we still be reading Uncle Tom's Cabin if Stowe similarly shelved her efforts for half a decade?

Similarly, Milton set out to write the great Christian epic. Of course he took time. Considering most of his income came from his status and connections, it's not like the public was waiting with bated breath for it to come out. However, even if Milton's reputation would've survived among his coterie readership without giving them anything to talk about (but considering he 'wrote' the damn thing while literally blind, we could probably cut him some slack), let us look at the similar example of Pope's Rape of the Lock. He would have seriously pissed off his circle of friends that were waiting for the work to bring some kind of closure to a contentious event if he had dithered about traveling back and forth from Ireland, France, etc. while they were waiting for it.

Chaucer almost hits the mark. He did originally claim to be writing far more than he actually did. Killing a few loved characters doesn't equal making the English language an accepted, respected, national language of literature. And until Martin writes all of his books with quill and parchment, and until he gets a job in Obama's cabinet, I don't think he can claim he doesn't have the time.

I've never liked Dickens and could never get into Don Quixote, but I say again, different times, different expectations. For someone who has the luxury of making a living by the written word, and someone with the access to modern typographic and publishing technology, Martin's failure can only be explained by author inability.

I think a completely fair comparison is between Martin and Erikson. In less time, Erikson has produced twice the novels, of greater length and quality than Martin's, and made most books better than the last, and all of them better than the first. Erikson under-promised and over-delivered. Martin is the exact opposite.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Martin is the next Melville, and I just can't recognize the genius of AFfC, which will prove in later centuries to be not only his greatest work, but one of the greatest fantasy novels of all time. I don't think it's likely, though. I want more Typee, dammit.

(who says an English degree is useless?)

danlo wrote:

sarge wrote:there is a third chronicles? no one has made me aware of that.

To quote John McEnroe, "You can't be serious!!?"

i am kidding - i know it exists, i just haven't read it yet. i may sit down soon and start. i just am afraid of getting into and having no ending. i tend to devour books in a day or two. i am worst with king. sometimes staying up all night to finish.

[Syl] wrote: I think a completely fair comparison is between Martin and Erikson. In less time, Erikson has produced twice the novels, of greater length and quality than Martin's, and made most books better than the last, and all of them better than the first. Erikson under-promised and over-delivered. Martin is the exact opposite.

This seems to be the main issue. People loved his early books so much that they have high expectations for the next.

Which begs the question: is it better to slowly build your career, with mild success at first followed by greater and greater recognition, or to have one massively popular success that financially sets you up for life?