Kevin's Watch

Holsety wrote:

Nekrimah wrote:As for possible Christian parallels/undertones/references in the Land, I thought it would be Amok.

Like Jesus, Amok calls himself the Way and the Door to the greater mystery: the Seventh Ward. He is very obtuse about it until one of the Lords guesses that he is a guide.

But Amok is not himself the secret of the Seventh Ward; to push this reference to Christianity would be to say Jesus is not God, but a guide to God.

Might be pushing a bit far for the Christians though.

Here's the thing, Amok also refers to himself as the seventh ward (and there's a collective gasp), I think at the loresraat meeting in Revelwood when HT catches him. I'll dig this up if you want me to.

So I'm not sure I agree with the third paragraph there. It's still an interesting connection - I never studied the New Testament, so I didn't know that Jesus called himself that.

I intended to mean, that the actual secret of the Seventh Ward is the Earthblood and the Power of Command. Amok is the Seventh Ward in the sense of a lock, concealing the secret, but is not himself the secret of the Ward.

I've understood the word "Ward" in TC to mean lock, barrier, shield or container. There is a type of lock called a "ward lock" which used to be very common.

Edit: what Jesus actually said was

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14:6

and

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:9


So Jesus does call himself a Door and the Way. Just not in the same sentence.

I intended to mean, that the actual secret of the Seventh Ward is the Earthblood and the Power of Command. Amok is the Seventh Ward in the sense of a lock, concealing the secret, but is not himself the secret of the Ward.

Well, the other wards are actually not power itself but the obfuscating way of guiding the lords to power, so I would argue that the Earthblood is not the Seventh Ward. The wards were crafted by Kevin. the Earthblood precedes Kevin and is a natural phenomenon. Amok, who was created by Kevin, and guides Elena to the Earthblood, is the Seventh Ward.

This is heavily in the field of semantics and might be dismissed as unimportant. I still think I'm right though.

Holsety wrote:

I intended to mean, that the actual secret of the Seventh Ward is the Earthblood and the Power of Command. Amok is the Seventh Ward in the sense of a lock, concealing the secret, but is not himself the secret of the Ward.

Well, the other wards are actually not power itself but the obfuscating way of guiding the lords to power, so I would argue that the Earthblood is not the Seventh Ward. The wards were crafted by Kevin. the Earthblood precedes Kevin and is a natural phenomenon. Amok, who was created by Kevin, and guides Elena to the Earthblood, is the Seventh Ward.

This is heavily in the field of semantics and might be dismissed as unimportant. I still think I'm right though.

I think you are, too. "Ward" has a number of definitions, most related to each other in ways...though a couple of them are actually kind of opposites, "to ward" one sense it to protect something, but A ward is what's being protected. Anyway, the power is in the knowledge of the Power of Command...IIRC, Amok has to take them to where it can be used AND he has to explain how to use it, what it does, what it doesn't.

Vraith wrote:

Holsety wrote:

I intended to mean, that the actual secret of the Seventh Ward is the Earthblood and the Power of Command. Amok is the Seventh Ward in the sense of a lock, concealing the secret, but is not himself the secret of the Ward.

Well, the other wards are actually not power itself but the obfuscating way of guiding the lords to power, so I would argue that the Earthblood is not the Seventh Ward. The wards were crafted by Kevin. the Earthblood precedes Kevin and is a natural phenomenon. Amok, who was created by Kevin, and guides Elena to the Earthblood, is the Seventh Ward.

This is heavily in the field of semantics and might be dismissed as unimportant. I still think I'm right though.

I think you are, too. "Ward" has a number of definitions, most related to each other in ways...though a couple of them are actually kind of opposites, "to ward" one sense it to protect something, but A ward is what's being protected. Anyway, the power is in the knowledge of the Power of Command...IIRC, Amok has to take them to where it can be used AND he has to explain how to use it, what it does, what it doesn't.

As for "what's being protected", don't forget that the wards are also protected themselves. They are protected by the ward which precedes them, by themselves (in the case of Amok), and the first ward was protected by the giants.

Well, to get back on topic, Amok talked like Jesus.

I suppose Christian readers got goosebumps at that point. "The Way and Door?"

But they would probably have guessed Amok's purpose before the Lords did- he's going to lead them somewhere!

Ananda wrote:Maybe his intent is to shock the 'good' reader out of complacency by showing these 'good people' to be fooling themselves and we are to see ourselves reflected in them?

"...to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable," eh?

Personally, I think he does a darn good job of that. Thing is... I'm not sure how many thoroughly self-satisfied 'good' people read all the way through his books... and have a clue what they're all about.

I certainly read all the way through LFB without 'getting' much of what was going on...

But then, were you saying that anyone, even people who are not obviously blind, presumptuous, superior, self-satisfied fools... can find common ground with the (self-proclaimed) "good people," in that we're all most blind to our own flaws?

(Sorry for responding to something so far "up-thread" so late; wanted to get my quote right, etc...)

Also, I think your assessment of a strong possible reason for Joan calling is pretty consistent: guilt tears a person up inside; it makes a person do things that you wouldn't be able to explain in any other sane way.
But that's more for another thread we've got around here...

Nekrimah wrote:Well, to get back on topic, Amok talked like Jesus.

I suppose Christian readers got goosebumps at that point. "The Way and Door?"

But they would probably have guessed Amok's purpose before the Lords did- he's going to lead them somewhere!

Yeah, I definitely noticed that too Nekrimah...
But, as one example of a Christian reader, I don't think it gave me chills and goosebumps... (can't remember for sure though) maybe just because I couldn't stand Amok...

I'm gonna totally disagree with you and say there are differences between the type / essential nature of Amok and that of Jesus [as I see him] that are so crucial that... the similarity of wording they both use seems to be just a matter of appearance.

I think that many of the religious parallels will be found in the things that are not "overtly religious," things like...

• the need of sacrifice to effect good in the Land,
  the depiction of a world where actions have clear consequences, (in some ways perhaps made clearer than our world)
  and SRD's implicit model of the human condition.

Welcome to the Watch, Nekrimah! ...and thanks for bringing up a subject I wanted to talk about. =)

Linna Heartlistener wrote:

• the need of sacrifice to effect good in the Land,
  the depiction of a world where actions have clear consequences, (in some ways perhaps made clearer than our world)
  and SRD's implicit model of the human condition.

Just to keep things interesting:
Peeps don't need to sacrifice to effect good...their good is being intentionally and externally torn apart...good is what they are.

the world has consequences, like any world, but they aren't clear, aren't obvious except in the most nebulous/general ways.

there is more than one model, and more than one condition. and from another angle, it's about wars between those models and conditions.

I have to admit I've never given that ending scenario with the doctors much thought; I've just tended to see it as a 'convenient' wrapping up that brings a liitle bit of magic back into our world from the Land (chiefly for our - the readers - benefit) but it does raise some interesting questions.

Aside from the paralells that Ananda draws our attention to comes the question of how we are to view the Creator with respect to 'our God'. Are they one and the same then, that this 'Creator' can effect miricles in our world (and yet cannot interfere in any way in the Lands affairs); indeed is Foul our Satan, trapped in an other worldly prison to at least limit his mischeif to one point within the multiplicity of parralel universes that the Creator has formed?

peter wrote:I have to admit I've never given that ending scenario with the doctors much thought; I've just tended to see it as a 'convenient' wrapping up that brings a liitle bit of magic back into our world from the Land (chiefly for our - the readers - benefit) but it does raise some interesting questions.

Aside from the paralells that Ananda draws our attention to comes the question of how we are to view the Creator with respect to 'our God'. Are they one and the same then, that this 'Creator' can effect miricles in our world (and yet cannot interfere in any way in the Lands affairs); indeed is Foul our Satan, trapped in an other worldly prison to at least limit his mischeif to one point within the multiplicity of parralel universes that the Creator has formed?

There is some part, I think in Lord Foul's Bane, where Covenant speculates that the world he comes from doesn't operate according to the same rules as The Land, and seems to imply that he doesn't think that the earth's creator and the land's creator are one and the same. No appraisal is made as to whether his comments here have a prophetic nature IIRC. The Creator himself doesn't seem to shed much light on your question in TPTP, so...ultimately I'm not really sure.

Ananda- something just jogged my memory the other day and I think I came up with the connection you were (I think) fumbling for! And it totally has to do BOTH with a comment involving a doctor and, as you said:

My opinion is that it is meant to be a commentary on people paying lip service to the myths they say they are invested in and live by and how they really are. How the 'good' people don't actually follow the things that make them think that they are the 'good' people.

Savin' my thought for when you get back...

Vraith wrote:

Linna Heartlistener wrote:

• the need of sacrifice to effect good in the Land,
  the depiction of a world where actions have clear consequences, (in some ways perhaps made clearer than our world)
  and SRD's implicit model of the human condition.

Just to keep things interesting:
Peeps don't need to sacrifice to effect good...their good is being intentionally and externally torn apart...good is what they are.

the world has consequences, like any world, but they aren't clear, aren't obvious except in the most nebulous/general ways.

there is more than one model, and more than one condition. and from another angle, it's about wars between those models and conditions.

Hahah, I enjoy this argument too... I think I'm going to respond on the -other- thread about religious parallels (since I think we were discussing almost this exact subject there)...
...whenever I do get around to that... hmm..

Linna Heartlistener wrote:Ananda- something just jogged my memory the other day and I think I came up with the connection you were (I think) fumbling for! And it totally has to do BOTH with a comment involving a doctor and, as you said:

My opinion is that it is meant to be a commentary on people paying lip service to the myths they say they are invested in and live by and how they really are. How the 'good' people don't actually follow the things that make them think that they are the 'good' people.

Savin' my thought for when you get back...

hope I didnt make you wait too long time. What was the connection you came up with?

hope I didnt make you wait too long time. What was the connection you came up with?

Nahh, I suspect this is the perfect timing for me!

How the 'good' people don't actually follow the things that make them think that they are the 'good' people.

So, it had hit me... it's doctors and on Easter...

Jesus got picked-on by the "good, religious people" for spending time with "sinners and tax collectors."

And his wonderful, ironic response:
“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

(But He also does not say, "You don't need a physician; these people do.")

We humans get so caught up in our games of comparing ourselves to each-other.
We say things like "I would never do what he did" or "I'm so glad I'm not like her," we don't stop to realize that we're utterly missing the point.
What if "the real standard" is something very different?

Covenant so obviously "needs a doctor" of some sort... especially right at that moment.
And in the same way, we'd say, "he needs help" when we look at his weaknesses in the longer-term, too: ...ill with leprosy, outcasted by everyone, desperate, rapes a girl.

Now I'm not assuming you were necessarily like, "yes, I was looking for something from the Bible" ...but rather, a lot of people have bits 'n pieces of it rattling around in their heads...

Linna Heartlistener wrote: We humans get so caught up in our games of comparing ourselves to each-other.
We say things like "I would never do what he did" or "I'm so glad I'm not like her," we don't stop to realize that we're utterly missing the point.
What if "the real standard" is something very different?

I think your point here on the game is on target...but I'm not sure we do miss the point [which could be accidental, or random, or a mistake] so much as dodge it. I suspect that all of us...barring perhaps socio/psychopaths...sense a real standard much as we sense the location of our own hands whether we're thinking about them or not. The source and absoluteness of that standard is debatable...but the simple capacity to say the things you note suggests its existence, even if it's just our ideal self, self-projected/created out of longing and dreams.