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Hashi Lebwohl
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

aliantha wrote:I couldn't disagree more. Those "flower power" kids brought about the end of the Vietnam War by galvanizing American opposition to the war. It took awhile -- Kent State occurred in May 1970 and the Paris Peace Accords were signed in January 1973 -- but the protests did have an impact. Kent State wasn't the first protest, but it was the one that really jump-started the protest movement and forced the establishment to take the protestors seriously.
it might seem that way, yes, but the hippie/anti-war movement was a very small albeit vocal minority; they were less than 1% of the population but got significant coverage in the news because they were counterculture. I think the daily news footage from Vietnam being broadcast on the nightly news at dinner time had more impact towards ending the war--it is difficult to enjoy a Salisbury steak with potatoes on the side when you are seeing on TV (in color) a young man riddled with bullet holes or carrying his friend who lost a leg.

These days, there is no such thing as "counterculture" because there is no mainstream majority culture, but yes--college students are once again coming to the forefront of protest movements currently underway. I can't blame them--4 years of school and no great job prospects to show for it.
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Post by aliantha »

Hashi, I don't know how old you are, but I was in high school and college during the '70s. The protestors may have been a "visible minority", but the sentiments among that age group were pretty much universal.

The news footage played a part, too. But the kids who saw them were visualizing their *own* bodies riddled with bullet holes. The war footage might have been a catalyst -- it was showing up on TV *years* before Kent State -- but it was the protestors who really turned public opinion around.

The 1960s and '70s were a hugely turbulent time in US history. The assassinations of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. in '68, the protests at the Democratic National Convention in '68, race riots in LA, Kent State -- all of those events played a part in overturning the status quo and, among other things, getting us out of Vietnam. (Getting us out of that war was one of the few things Nixon did right.)
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Post by SerScot »

aliantha,
aliantha wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:That whole "flower power" movement in the late 60s was essentially leaderless; it didn't accomplish anything, either, especially after Kent State. That event didn't kill only 4 students, it killed the whole movement.
I couldn't disagree more. Those "flower power" kids brought about the end of the Vietnam War by galvanizing American opposition to the war. It took awhile -- Kent State occurred in May 1970 and the Paris Peace Accords were signed in January 1973 -- but the protests did have an impact. Kent State wasn't the first protest, but it was the one that really jump-started the protest movement and forced the establishment to take the protestors seriously.

College students were involved then because they were being drafted to fight a war they wanted no part of. College students are involved now because they can't find jobs. You can write them off as "leftist/Marxist kooks" if you like, but I don't much in that manifesto that's not true.
Respectfully, the American withdrawl from Vietnam did not end the war. It facilitated the NVA victory in the war and the deaths and exile of huge numbers of people after the end of the war.

With regard to the protests I've been reading about them they are more and more interesting. Apparently there are tea party activists participating with the leftists in these protests. I have a friend and his wife who drove up the NYC today to see what was going on.

[edited for spelling and a perfect example of why simple spelling mistakes matter]
Last edited by SerScot on Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by aliantha »

SerScot wrote:I facilitated the NVA victory in the war and the deaths and exile of huge numbers of people after the end of the war.
You DID?? 8O (Sorry, couldn't help myself. ;) )

I won't argue with you that things ended badly for the Vietnamese. But Nixon got us out -- and we really should never have been there in the first place (kind of like some of the US's more recent wars...).

Tea partiers and liberals, protesting together? This thing is sounding more and more like a populist revolt, isn't it?
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

aliantha wrote:Hashi, I don't know how old you are, but I was in high school and college during the '70s. The protestors may have been a "visible minority", but the sentiments among that age group were pretty much universal.
That would make me about 10 years younger than you are, so no I didn't live throught it; therefore, you may dismiss my analysis of the situation entirely, if you so desire, and I will forget the various analyses of that era that I have studied over the years.

The current protests against Wall Street--there is another one set to happen in Washington, D. C. on the 10th anniversary of the beginning of the Afghanistan conflict (the Vietnam of the current time)--are spreading a little for now, but aren't widespread or large enough to call them "populist" yet. I keep listening to daily updates on DemocracyNow and I just don't hear or see anything that resembles Arab Spring, the movement the protesters are trying to emulate.

I didn't say I disagree with them, only that the protests aren't populist yet. As I said, most Americans are complacent--not enough people have gotten upset enough yet to really do anything about the current situation. Like the old farmer's lazy dog, they are lying on a rusty nail but rather than move they remain there, yowling about it.
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Post by aliantha »

Hashi -- okay. 8)

(That was also the era of, "If we're old enough to die for our country, why aren't we old enough to vote?" The age of suffrage was lowered to from 21 to 18 in '70. Before that, the Establishment ;) didn't *have* to listen to college kids....)
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Post by Cail »

They still don't, 'cause the annoying little bastards don't vote.
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Post by Rigel »

My main problem with the protesters is that they don't have any ideas about how to fix things...

Umm... get rid of the big banks? And replace them with what? If we just replace them with little banks, they'll grow to the size of the current ones, and begin acting the same way.

Cap bonuses and salaries? Then compensation will take other forms (stock options, equity deals, expense accounts or outright gifts).

Wipe out fraud? With what, more regulations? Much of the fraud that occurred in the mid 2000s was already illegal (hence the term "fraud").

So, what do they actually want to do?
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Post by Avatar »

Burn it all down, kill anybody who complains, and start again. :D

(Oh, and of course you shouldn't have been in Vietnam. But that was a different time... ;) )

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Post by aliantha »

Cail wrote:They still don't, 'cause the annoying little bastards don't vote.
*We* did. Back in *my* day, we knew the value of a vote. :x And get offa my lawn! Damn kids...

;)

(Of course, today, the Boomers don't vote, either. :oops: )
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Post by Cail »

aliantha wrote:
Cail wrote:They still don't, 'cause the annoying little bastards don't vote.
*We* did. Back in *my* day, we knew the value of a vote.
As I've said before, much to the chagrin of many, the only impact that the hippies really had was cultural; fashion, sexual mores, and drug use. The hippies didn't end the war, the news media did.
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Cybrweez »

Ha, I'm glad you quoted SS ali, so I could see the error. That was funny.

I'm listening to some lectures about American founding virtues, has been really good. But he just mentioned some of Hamilton's thoughts at Constitutional Convention, basically President is for life, and has supreme power. Obviously, that didn't go over well. But he said that common people will tire of democracy. Quite prescient.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Cybrweez wrote:he said that common people will tire of democracy. Quite prescient.
There are two fundamental problems with democracy, the way we have it set up.

1) Money is able to influence the system too heavily. Ultra-rich individuals or corporations with really deep pockets are able to buy politicians.

2) We have such a disparate collection of people, all of whom have goals they would like to see enacted yet none of whom have a sufficient majority, that what winds up happening is that no one really gets what they want. On the one hand this is good--we really don't want some of those goals put into action--but on the other hand it is bad--people get dissatisfied with not getting what they want after a while. Spouses who don't get what they want eventually have an affair; we will begin seeing an analogous situation with voters at some point.

The real danger with where we are right now is that we are ripe for a skilled demagogue to come along and begin whipping up wide, popular support for a plan to improve the economy and put us back on track...if only we would give him the power he needs to implement his stated solutions. No, I don't mean Obama--he had his time but unfortunately failed; instead, I mean a real power grab.
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Post by aliantha »

Cail wrote:The hippies didn't end the war, the news media did.
How did the news media end the war, in your view? By the time the late '60s rolled around, they were covering both the bloody corpses in Vietnam *and* the protests. Kent State happened fairly late in the game -- the Democratic National Convention in Chicago was in '68. The film (it wasn't video then...) from the battlefields began to be broadcast earlier than that -- '65, maybe? I'd have to look it up.
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Post by Cail »

aliantha wrote:
Cail wrote:The hippies didn't end the war, the news media did.
How did the news media end the war, in your view? By the time the late '60s rolled around, they were covering both the bloody corpses in Vietnam *and* the protests. Kent State happened fairly late in the game -- the Democratic National Convention in Chicago was in '68. The film (it wasn't video then...) from the battlefields began to be broadcast earlier than that -- '65, maybe? I'd have to look it up.
No one cared about the smelly hippies. The general public (silent majority) lost the stomach for warfare when it was televised every night.
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Hashi Lebwohl wrote: There are two fundamental problems with democracy, the way we have it set up.

1) Money is able to influence the system too heavily. Ultra-rich individuals or corporations with really deep pockets are able to buy politicians.

2) We have such a disparate collection of people, all of whom have goals they would like to see enacted yet none of whom have a sufficient majority, that what winds up happening is that no one really gets what they want. On the one hand this is good--we really don't want some of those goals put into action--but on the other hand it is bad--people get dissatisfied with not getting what they want after a while. Spouses who don't get what they want eventually have an affair; we will begin seeing an analogous situation with voters at some point.

The real danger with where we are right now is that we are ripe for a skilled demagogue to come along and begin whipping up wide, popular support for a plan to improve the economy and put us back on track...if only we would give him the power he needs to implement his stated solutions. No, I don't mean Obama--he had his time but unfortunately failed; instead, I mean a real power grab.
Well said. I think I pretty much agree.

(Agree with Cail too...the government learned its lesson about having reporters on the front lines there...)

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Post by Farsailer »

One of the very best articles I've ever seen explaining how our allowing the bankers and the gummint their way has brought us down:

LINK

Excerpts from the article:
So what is financialization anyway? It is the process by which something very ordinary (say, a TV set) becomes financed. In doing so there is inherently created the use (and usually the abuse) of leverage.

What is leverage? Leverage is simply the ability to act as though you have much more of something than you really do. For example, you can use leverage to pry off the lid on a beer bottle. Your raw strength is multiplied by the lever (the bottle opener) to lift the cap.

But note that there is no free lunch. While the opener may multiply the force applied to the cap, the distance the opener moves is proportionally reduced compared to the movement of your hand.

In economics, leverage is the use of debt to pretend to have more economic surplus (that is, purchasing power) than you really have.

Let's take a TV set. If you save up the money to buy one, then go into the store and pay for it, you now own a TV set. There is no leverage involved; you took your economic surplus form working (which you didn't need for food, energy, shelter and clothing - thus, it's a true surplus to you) and you expend it on a TV set. The transaction is simple; once it is completed there are no residual effects. If you lose your job the next day, you still have the TV set and will forever more until it either breaks, wears out or you dispose of it in some way.

But what if the TV set costs $500 and you only have $100? Well, you could financialize your acquisition of the TV. That is, you could borrow $400 by buying the TV on installment payments with a $100 down payment, and now you have a TV.

Or do you?

Actually, the bank (or the store) owns a TV. You may have custody of a TV set, but you don't own a TV set. You owe a debt. You have promised to work tomorrow to cover the expense of the television. You don't own the TV until you pay it off.

This is all fine and well up until you lose your job. Now the bank comes after you and wants the TV back, plus whatever deficiency there is on reselling the TV set to cover your debt. You suddenly discover, much to your chagrin, that you never owned it at all.

This all sounds pretty ordinary, except that the economic effect of financializing that transaction isn't, in fact, ordinary at all.

See, in economics there is this thing called "supply and demand." The more demand there is for something with a given supply, the higher the price tends to be. In ordinary times a gallon jug of drinking water in a store is a dollar, and from the tap it costs so little we don't ordinarily put a price on it. Yet if there was just a hurricane, and there is no fresh water available, what would the price of that same gallon be? Ah, now we have much demand and very short supply, and as such the price will be quite dear. Perhaps the price of that water might be several gallons of gasoline (for the seller's generator, of course.)

So what has happened to our economy over the last three decades?

In short, things that never should have been became financialized. And as the goods and services became financialized, demand was shifted upward - people were made "able" to allegedly "buy" things they could not otherwise afford. The expected response in the marketplace to such a thing, predicted by basis economics, was that prices would rise.

Prices, in fact, did exactly what you'd expect.

If you're wondering why you can't afford to pay for college by flipping burgers or pizzas in your off hours, this is the reason. It was precisely the distortion of the government making student loan debt non-dischargeable, which made it available to almost everyone at a "low interest rate", that drove up the price of college educations to the moon. And to the moon they went - up 450% since the 1980s, more than five times as much as average salaries increased.

How about houses? A middle-class house in 1960 sold for $12,000. It had three bedrooms, one bath, a living room and an eat-in kitchen. The walls were plaster (not drywall) and it was of generally-stout construction. The average family income in 1960 was $6,691 or about 1/2 of the price of a house. The average family size was just over 3 persons and about 32% of women were in the workforce; the remainder typically stayed home and raised the kids. That wasn't so hard to do when you could buy a house at twice the average income.

What happened when we financialized houses? Prices went up. A lot. They went up much faster than did incomes. First to 3x incomes, and in some parts of the nation in the 2000s they went to utterly ridiculous multiples, like 5, 6 even 10x. How? Nobody ever really actually owned the damn house; the bank owned it and you were turned into a financial slave!

How about cellphones? Oh, they're cheap; we didn't financialize those, did we? The really nice ones are $199 at the store. Uh, no they're not. Ever notice that the price of the service is twice that of prepaid? Why do you think that is? That's simple - the difference between $100/month and $50/month is, well, $600/year. Oh, and that was a two-year contract you signed, so that $500 cell phone that you got such a "deal" on at $199 actually cost you nearly $1,500. That's right - that nice "smartphone" was financialized and you're paying three times as much for it as a consequence, rather than buying it right now for cash on a prepaid plan.
There's a lot worth reading here, but I'll just quote the conclusion:
More importantly than your personal interest in this is that as a society we've reached the limits of the ability to financialize our lives. That's why the markets, housing and economy crashed in 2007. We had used financial leverage to live beyond our means for the previous decade but in fact the imbalances and intentional distortions in the market date back to 1980. There has not been one three month period where we have not abused leverage and financialization since that time. Not one.

This is the choice we have before us.

We did not find ourselves here because of the "free market." We are here because the rich and powerful demanded special protections from government that allowed them to enslave you, they enticed you into taking that first hit off the crack pipe of cheap money, and then once you were hooked good they used the jackboot of the government to screw you through changes in the law and special protections for themselves so that you could not easily escape.

The solution is not to demand "free stuff" or "fairness."

The only solution is to remove the excess leverage from the economy - to get rid of the debt that has been accumulated and force recognition of the fact that not only are many people bankrupt but the financial institutions are as well. Only when the balance sheets on both sides are cleared can the economy recover.

This is the choice we face ladies and gentlemen. We can either demand changes that are mathematically sustainable or we will fail at our goal and the spiral you're seeing right now in Greece will come here.
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Post by Cybrweez »

Aw man, he slipped at the end.

But we've been talking about the same thing in the housing thread. Govt policies that incentivize financialization. Its important on a macro level for people to spend in order to create demand, but its bad on a macro level if that spending is on credit.
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Post by Cail »

Cybrweez wrote:Its important on a macro level for people to spend in order to create demand, but its bad on a macro level if that spending is on credit.
This really cuts it down to a simple explanation.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

He didn't slip--this article is completely correct.

The best way for an individual or a family to remain relatively financially secure is this: never buy anything if you cannot afford it.

No, that isn't the easiest thing to do--even I fail at it from time to time--but once you get started it gets easier all the time. I have 6 or 7 car payments left; after that, I will never finance another car for the rest of my life. We need a replacement TV set but we will not buy one until we pay for it in cash (we could now but we're waiting for holiday sales later in the year).

There are far too many people in this country who are, for lack of any more polite term, stupid when it comes to money. They always want everything right now, no matter how much it costs in the long term.
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