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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:49 pm
by Prebe
I wrote:My guess (but that remains a guess) is that kindling the fire of Palestinian violence (releasing a 1000 terrorists) is not really as much against Israeli government/religious fundie interests as one might think.
Let me dissect this for a moment:

1: Does anyone deny that there are fundamentalist religious groupings in Israel that are every bit as adamant about annihilating the Palestinians as some (a healthy helping I'm sure) palestinians are about annihilating Israel?

2: Thinking that the Israeli government might be interested in one or more (good) excuses to crack down hard on terrorist and terrorists suspects, might be a conspiracy theory, but it has NOTHING to do with antisemitism.

3: Does anyone deny that fundamentalist religious groups are represented in the Isreali parliament/government? Much akin to the representation of islamist fundies in both Gaza and the West-bank?

Please be good enough to notice, that I am mentioning both sides of the conflict. I am not interested in making friends in Gaza either.

From the Likud charter:
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
And these guys are the "secular" ones.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:04 pm
by Zarathustra
Prebe wrote:
Cail wrote:Those damn, dirty Jews.
What is it with you and jews Cail?

And Zar: I'm by no means condemning the action, I'm merely trying to get some inputs to understand the proportions here. Something that everyone but you and Cail have provided so far.
I am certainly not qualified to explain to you Israel's logic. I find it more interesting to contemplate the people attempting to do so. You comment on what you think is interesting, and leave what I find interesting up to me.
1: Does anyone deny that there are fundamentalist religious groupings in Israel that are every bit as adamant about annihilating the Palestinians as some (a healthy helping I'm sure) palestinians are about annihilating Israel?
Seems the burden of proof for that idea should be on you, if you're claiming it exists. I suppose there should be evidence of it somewhere? It's difficult to prove the nonexistence of something, if that's what you're expecting us to do. But given the fact that Israel could easily destroy their enemies, and yet they haven't, I don't see the relevance of this point even if it's true.
2: Thinking that the Israeli government might be interested in one or more (good) excuses to crack down hard on terrorist and terrorists suspects, might be a conspiracy theory, but it has NOTHING to do with antisemitism.
It might give the appearance of antisemitism if you disproportionately direct your conspiracy theories at the Jews, and don't have an equal amount for their enemies (who happen to outnumber them, and thus one might expect them to have more conspiracies).

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:40 pm
by Prebe
Zar wrote:I am certainly not qualified to explain to you Israel's logic.
Pfff. You comment on a shitload of other stuff that you are equally unquallified at. Just like the rest of us.
Zar wrote:I find it more interesting to contemplate the people attempting to do so.
"Well, Excuse me! I'm off to play the grand piano!"
I wrote:1: Does anyone deny that there are fundamentalist religious groupings in Israel that are every bit as adamant about annihilating the Palestinians as some (a healthy helping I'm sure) palestinians are about annihilating Israel?
I'm not asking you to prove or disprove anything. I'm asking if you deny that such people exist. This may be tantamount to requiring a disproval, which was not my intention. Let me rephrase: do you personally think such people/forces exist?

And before you tell me that "what you think doesn't matter", I'd like to hear you say "No, I don't think they exist". Otherwise, I really can't be bothered to look for evidence.
I wrote:2: Thinking that the Israeli government might be interested in one or more (good) excuses to crack down hard on terrorist and terrorists suspects, might be a conspiracy theory, but it has NOTHING to do with antisemitism.
Zar wrote:It might give the appearance of antisemitism if you disproportionately direct your conspiracy theories at the Jews, and don't have an equal amount for their enemies (who happen to outnumber them, and thus one might expect them to have more conspiracies).
That is a point, but I figured that the support for Israel was pretty wide spread and solid on this forum, and I honestly thought that the general debate needed a little depreciation of the Israeli government and their means and ends, that I think is fully earned. But if that is not possible without being labelled as antisemitic, I really don't know, if I am interested in hearing any of your opinions.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:55 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
Prebe wrote:
I wrote:1: Does anyone deny that there are fundamentalist religious groupings in Israel that are every bit as adamant about annihilating the Palestinians as some (a healthy helping I'm sure) palestinians are about annihilating Israel?
I'm not asking you to prove or disprove anything. I'm asking if you deny that such people exist. This may be tantamount to requiring a disproval, which was not my intention. Let me rephrase: do you personally think such people/forces exist?

Of course.
I'm not sure where you're going with this though.
From what I've read in the past there's also a lot of resentment from the normal Jews against the more fundie Jews because the fundies won't join the military or fight to preserve their country.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:59 pm
by Prebe
HLT wrote:I'm not sure where you're going with this though.
Merely defending myself against what I find to be a completely ridiculous and out of place hitlerization of Yours Truly by some (or at least one) esteemed board member(s).
HLT wrote:From what I've read in the past there's also a lot of resentment from the normal Jews against the more fundie Jews because the fundies won't join the military or fight to preserve their country.
I'm sure there are some fundie branches who won't join the army, but I don't think it's all of them.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:48 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
Prebe wrote:
HLT wrote:From what I've read in the past there's also a lot of resentment from the normal Jews against the more fundie Jews because the fundies won't join the military or fight to preserve their country.
I'm sure there are some fundie branches who won't join the army, but I don't think it's all of them.
I think it's the ones with the crazy hair.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:57 pm
by [Syl]
High Lord Tolkien wrote: I think it's the ones with the crazy hair.
The Haredi (or less politely, Ultra Orthodox Jews). They're exempted/deferred from the draft, so most do not serve in the military. They do, however, provide emergency response to terrorist attacks and are the ones who pick up all the body pieces so the victims can be buried relatively whole.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:30 pm
by Holsety
Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel
Wasn't the messiah supposed to have come first?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:44 am
by Lord Mhoram
Zarathustra wrote:Just goes to show that Israel is forever being accused of "disproportionate response," even when it's doing someting peaceful and humanitarian. :roll:
No doubt Hamas would be demanding the release of a greater number of the illegally held prisoners in Israel if they had more Israeli prisoners to offer. (I say illegal because according to the Fourth Geneva Convention, it is illegal for an occupying state to forcefully transfer prisoners from an occupied territory to the occupying state. So all Hamas prisoners in Israel are ipso facto held illegally. I should add that the legal conditions of Hamas's prisoner were also woefully illegal; for example, he was denied Red Cross visits, and I don't have to say anything to his right to due process.) If anything, this transfer cements the great disproportion of Israel's response to the allegedly existential threat of groups like Hamas in that it demonstrates the strength of Israel's mighty fist. There are thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israel. How this shows Israel's generosity is beyond me; no doubt such a conclusion requires a highly skewed perception of events.

Prebe, I disagree with your analysis of why Israel is doing what it's doing here. Israel knows that if the current interim government in Egypt (which is growing closer to Hamas) collapses, the possibility of a deal for the release of Sgt. Shalit goes out the window. They are also worried about the Arab Spring and the collapse of dictators like Mubarak with whom they were on good terms, and the rise of popular movements which dislike them so much. So they made a deal that otherwise they wouldn't have accepted. (E.g., if Mubarak was still around.) Hamas is making calculations of its own. They know that Assad is on the verge of collapse in Syria, where their headquarters is located, so they're desperate to solidify their position in the region. Let's not forget that Hamas compromised on this deal too. If Assad were strong, they would have demanded far more prisoners in exchange for Shalit, as indeed they were doing in negotiations since his capture.

So basically I think there's a political calculus at work here on both sides.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:55 am
by Avatar
Cail wrote:
Prebe wrote:My guess (but that remains a guess) is that kindling the fire of Palestinian violence (releasing a 1000 terrorists) is not really as much against Israeli government/religious fundie interests as one might think.
....and you have to ask?
Bullshit. You claiming that because somebody disagrees with Israeli policy/actions then they're anti-Semitic? The disagreement has nothing to do with the religion of the Israeli's. It has to do with their politics, not the fact that they're Jews.

Seems the distinction is lost to more than just some people though. Reminds me of the claims that Arch-Bishop Tutu was an anti-Semite because he asked the Cape Opera not to tour Israel until both Israelis and Palestinians have unfettered access to the performances.

It's like calling people who opposed the Iraq invasion unpatriotic.

Let's not have any more of that crap please. Personally, I've met and worked with and liked both Israeli's and Jews. I even respect many tenets of the Jewish religion. I don't agree with a lot of their actions and policies though. Does that mean I hate the Jews too?

Let's drop that particular line of accusation, whether implicit or explicit.

--A

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:31 am
by Cail
Avatar wrote:
Cail wrote:
Prebe wrote:My guess (but that remains a guess) is that kindling the fire of Palestinian violence (releasing a 1000 terrorists) is not really as much against Israeli government/religious fundie interests as one might think.
....and you have to ask?
Bullshit. You claiming that because somebody disagrees with Israeli policy/actions then they're anti-Semitic? The disagreement has nothing to do with the religion of the Israeli's. It has to do with their politics, not the fact that they're Jews.
Bullshit nothing. Clearly you haven't bothered to read what I posted before incorrectly jumping in with both feel.

May I suggest you go back and read what I wrote rather than just what Prebe's accusing me of?



And we were so close to being civil.... :roll:

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:30 am
by Prebe
Sounds like a good analysis to me LM. I'm sure there are many calculations on both sides. It was in the hope of elucidating these that I started this thread.

I don't think I have given enough thought to the Arab spring as a determinig factor. I fear - as you imply - that many of the events of the Arab Spring will be impediments rather than boons for the peace process. At least in the short term, I truly dread that the toppled oligarks in the ME are replaced by Ayatollahs.....

Edit: I had hoped that Syl would be weighing in on it too (on the more pro-Israeli side), but As I recall he swore a few years ago that he wouldn't get involved in a Israel/Palestine discussion again. Unfortunately.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:09 pm
by Lord Mhoram
I wanted to say a few more words about disproportion. Whatever else one thinks of the Shalit "kidnapping," the fact is that he is a solider of an occupying army. (I don't think kidnapping is the proper nomenclature for the capture of an enemy solider, but whatever.) Although the conditions of his detainment were woeful, as I said, his detainment was par for the course for the conduct of war.

Imagine if Hamas held ministers of the Israeli government, fifteen children held without charge, trial or knowledge of why they are being detained, 47 ministers of the democratically elected Israeli legislature, mayors of cities across Israel, and an untold number of Israeli civilians, including (and now my counterfactual ends; we're talking about the real perpetrators again here) two civilian brothers kidnapped by the IDF in Gaza two days before the soldier Shalit was. They've never been heard from again, disappeared into Israel's vast prison network.

Imagine the outrage in the West and Israel if such a state of affairs were to exist. We don't have to imagine it, because that is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So don't talk to me about Israel's humanitarianism and generosity.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:45 pm
by [Syl]
Prebe wrote:Edit: I had hoped that Syl would be weighing in on it too (on the more pro-Israeli side), but As I recall he swore a few years ago that he wouldn't get involved in a Israel/Palestine discussion again. Unfortunately.
Eh, I just don't have anything new to add. I'm glad Shalit has been freed, and I'm not surprised at the numbers in the trade.

Politically, I'd prefer the US and Israel acknowledge a Palestinian state, with or without land swaps, then respond in full force when (not if) the then-sovereign (the idea in itself a practical impossibility) nation attacks Israel. However, I completely understand why they don't, nor do I have much of a problem with hardline tactics in response to an admitted terrorist organization, despite their newfound claims to legitimacy.

As for the nature of a Jewish state, the name alone would seem to imply this is so. But I think it is a mistake to think there is no room for pluralism in Israel or that "Jewish" even means one particular thing to everybody in Israel or even the majority. Israeli Arabs make up about 1/5 the population of Israel, and though there are some issues with the status of elected officials, they have full voting/citizenship rights (and almost twice that number would as well if they had not refused them). Israeli arabs, as well as Druze and Christians, can and do serve in the IDF.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:25 pm
by Holsety
Let's not have any more of that crap please. Personally, I've met and worked with and liked both Israeli's and Jews. I even respect many tenets of the Jewish religion. I don't agree with a lot of their actions and policies though. Does that mean I hate the Jews too?

Let's drop that particular line of accusation, whether implicit or explicit.
...
I might get in trouble for this, since the mod just said to drop this, but I'm going to genially attempt to contradict you and hope that things turn out fine.

Your outlook here privileges the jewish religious beliefs and the cultural existence of the jewish people as who they really are - in other words, if I say that I like them as individuals and that I like the religious aspect of who they are (even though they contradict their religion with the existence of the state of Israel AFAIK), then I can say that I do not hate them. However, it COULD be argued that unless you embrace their status as political actors as well - in a situation where there is some ground, though I like to think it is skewed and inaccurate, that their survival as a state depends upon their mistreatment of the Palestinians - you have some level of inability to accept them for what they need to be in order to survive. Which, at least for me, is the source of my potentially inaccurate despite for Israel as a Jewish state (not for Israelis, who I care for abstractedly but deeply as I am capable). There's a difference between hatred and despite, but it doesn't mean that despite might not be a bad way of going about things.

But I agree that antisemitism is probably not the correct word for it.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:56 pm
by Prebe
Thanks Syl. And thanks LM.
Syl wrote:As for the nature of a Jewish state, the name alone would seem to imply this is so. But I think it is a mistake to think there is no room for pluralism in Israel or that "Jewish" even means one particular thing to everybody in Israel or even the majority.
LM wrote:Whatever else one thinks of the Shalit "kidnapping," the fact is that he is a solider of an occupying army. (I don't think kidnapping is the proper nomenclature for the capture of an enemy solider, but whatever.) Although the conditions of his detainment were woeful, as I said, his detainment was par for the course for the conduct of war.
Food for thought is exactly what I need and what I expect from this forum.

Edit: And Holsety, either you are being incoherent (which would be totally out of character) or my command of the english language is not sufficient to gauge where you are going with your post. The latter seems to be the most likely. So, pray, enlighten me.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:13 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
Prebe wrote: Edit: And Holsety, either you are being incoherent (which would be totally out of character) or my command of the english language is not sufficient to gauge where you are going with your post. The latter seems to be the most likely. So, pray, enlighten me.
I didn't get what he was saying either.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:28 pm
by Prebe
Heh! I'm glad I'm not alone HLT ;)
I think it's the ones with the crazy hair.
I thoroughly burst my seems at that one!

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:45 pm
by Holsety
Edit: And Holsety, either you are being incoherent (which would be totally out of character) or my command of the english language is not sufficient to gauge where you are going with your post. The latter seems to be the most likely. So, pray, enlighten me.
Perhaps I should start by saying that my personal view of the state of Israel is as follows. The founding of the state of Israel by Israeli colonists was immoral, essentially a repurposing of Palestinian land for Israeli use. I don't have statistics, but I am under the impression - this impression was prior to my first manic episode and may be untrustworthy, but I do not know where to look to find data on land distribution (Jewish settlers VS Arabs VS other groups should there have been any, Bedouins are hard to deal with since they don't have land but require unoccupied land, essentially to be nomadic is to view oneself as owning unowned land, and it is untenable for nomadism to exist in an oppressive state that seeks to repurpose unoccupied land for development) to reconfirm my impression with statistics - that the majority of Israeli land was taken during the British Mandate period, not transferred through economic exchange. It is certainly the case that I would like to reeducate myself so that I had a firmer grasp of the facts, but wikipedia articles don't seem to contain the relevant information. Anyway, the fact that the Palestinians fled their land to allow other Middle Eastern countries to invade in an attempt to return the land to the Palestinians during does not revoke their right to the land of Israel and their ancestral home. Thus the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza have a right to the land that the Israelis are living on. However, the Israelis also have a right to it because they have established themselves there for long enough and have invested their time and energy into construction on the land. The solution to the problem is not going to be through political, manufactured solutions but either a destruction of the identity or existence of one of the two warring factions or a reconciliation which brings about relative justice in material terms (as things are, my understanding of the situation is that Palestinians who work in Israel much of the dirty work of keeping things running, there is a fairly strong class distinction between Jews and Arabs. Even aquifers centered primarily under Palestinian occupied territories are being repurposed by Israel, the majority of the resources in the area are being sucked up by an usurping people - though, because they have invested their lives their, they have a partial right to the usurpation. The Jews defend their right with the Torah, saying they have a right to the land, but I say that the Palestinians have a right to the land too).

Anyway, with that mostly irrelevant (asides from the last part, the rest was just lead-up to why I feel the way I do) portion of the post out of the way, what I was trying to say is that Israelis are not just Jews, they are also Israelis. If Palestinians were given equal rights as Israelis, then Israel would cease to be a Jewish state because Palestinians who are followers of Islaam would outnumber the jews. Putting labels as much aside as possible in favor of the ideas they represent, it is IMO somewhat difficult to hold a position of "liking" another human being if you really understand what it is they need to do to maintain their identity and disapprove of what they need to do in order to maintain that identity. That is why I consider myself to despise Israel - although I do care what happens to Israelis, and I am sad when they die, I consider that their maintaining their identity as Jews who have restored the Holy Land is too expensive an ideological commodity. Frankly, I would feel less guilty living in an Arab state with a Jewish community than I would feel living in a Jewish state with an Arab community. Thankfully, I live in the United States of America, which for all its flaws at least on the face of things attempts religious equality.

What I am trying to say is that while "antisemitism" may not be the right word for it, there is some argument that the existence of Israel as a Jewish state depends upon the mistreatment of Palestinians, because there are more of them, and that opposing that mistreatment arguably opposes the very identity of the people who live in Israel. It is only if Jews as a people are highly fractured regarding whether the state of Israel should exist that one can refrain from using the blanket term "antisemite" to describe those who oppose the arguably necessary (for the Israelis as people who believe a Jewish state should be maintained, perhaps no one thing is truly necessary) second-class treatment of Palestinians, and if the Israeli Jews can accurately describe Jews against the existence of the state of Israel as "Self Hating Jews" (and I both hate and love myself, so I can be described as a self hating jew) and argue that it is in the Jewish people's best interest to maintain a Jewish state, then it can be called antisemitic to oppose policies which perpetuate the Jewish state.

My reality is that the interests of the Jewish state cannot be solidified without knowledge of the future, which is why I believe that being antisemitic can only be an emotional impulse, not a rational disapproval. But I can see how an Israeli Jew who had a strong command of the facts could call others antisemitic with fairly high amounts of accuracy for suggesting things that went against the interests of Israel to maintain its existence as a Jewish state.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:59 pm
by Prebe
:goodpost:
Brillant clarification of your personal opinon and stand.