The Chronicles as Allegory
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- peter
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I never quite got the hang if how the GI thing works, but deos anyone know - has SRD ever given any clues himself as to whether the Land is to be seen as dream or reality in the final analysis. At the end of the 1st Chrons, and through the second we are left in no (or at least very little) illusion that the Land is for real. It is only to my mid, that with the resumation of the story in the 3rd Chrons that the element of doubt is re-sown. As a person of the oppinion that it is by no means certain that the 3rd Chrons were ever intended to be published (has SRD comented on this as well) I am still prepared to go with the way we were left at the end of chrons 1 and 2. If indeed SRD intends to pull the rug on the Land's reality in the 3rd Chrons then I for one will believe it to have been a change of what he originally intended in the first two series.
To return to my original point, it would be supprising if the mah had been able to give an extended interview answering many and varied questions without ever refering to what was in his mind re the Lands actual existence or otherwise.
To return to my original point, it would be supprising if the mah had been able to give an extended interview answering many and varied questions without ever refering to what was in his mind re the Lands actual existence or otherwise.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- shadowbinding shoe
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I think Donaldson like to have it both ways (real and not real) but 2nd chronicles made the dream explanation implausible (how does Linden has the same dream without him telling her anything about the Land?)peter wrote:I never quite got the hang if how the GI thing works, but deos anyone know - has SRD ever given any clues himself as to whether the Land is to be seen as dream or reality in the final analysis. At the end of the 1st Chrons, and through the second we are left in no (or at least very little) illusion that the Land is for real. It is only to my mid, that with the resumation of the story in the 3rd Chrons that the element of doubt is re-sown. As a person of the oppinion that it is by no means certain that the 3rd Chrons were ever intended to be published (has SRD comented on this as well) I am still prepared to go with the way we were left at the end of chrons 1 and 2. If indeed SRD intends to pull the rug on the Land's reality in the 3rd Chrons then I for one will believe it to have been a change of what he originally intended in the first two series.
To return to my original point, it would be supprising if the mah had been able to give an extended interview answering many and varied questions without ever refering to what was in his mind re the Lands actual existence or otherwise.
What in the 3rd Chronicles made you doubt the Land's reality?
- peter
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Wouldn't Linden have to be part of TC's dream. ie that he never in reality 'woke up' after either the initial accident at the start of Chrons 1 (or possibly at the end of book 3) and that all subsequent events both in the real world and the land were in fact part of his dream, which is ongoing, and will be revealed as such at the end of chrons 3.
Now, this is not what I think (and fervently hope not) to be the case, but the element of doubt has been reintroduced into some peoples minds (to judge more from comments to be found in the 3rd Chron forums than anything actually in the books) not least by the titles of the books themselves which have an 'escatological' (if that is the right word) feel about them ie 'Against All Things Ending' and 'The Last Dark'.
Now, this is not what I think (and fervently hope not) to be the case, but the element of doubt has been reintroduced into some peoples minds (to judge more from comments to be found in the 3rd Chron forums than anything actually in the books) not least by the titles of the books themselves which have an 'escatological' (if that is the right word) feel about them ie 'Against All Things Ending' and 'The Last Dark'.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- shadowbinding shoe
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If Covenant is dreaming everything in the Chronicles that would mean he identifies himself as someone else (Linden, Hile Troy, Mhoram, Bloodguards) for lengthy periods of time. Now that's not impossible. I had dreams where I was someone else. But I have some problem justifying Covenant identifying himself as a dreamself Linden. Their characters are very different. I can imagine him putting his perspective in the others but not in Linden.peter wrote:Wouldn't Linden have to be part of TC's dream. ie that he never in reality 'woke up' after either the initial accident at the start of Chrons 1 (or possibly at the end of book 3) and that all subsequent events both in the real world and the land were in fact part of his dream, which is ongoing, and will be revealed as such at the end of chrons 3.
Now, this is not what I think (and fervently hope not) to be the case, but the element of doubt has been reintroduced into some peoples minds (to judge more from comments to be found in the 3rd Chron forums than anything actually in the books) not least by the titles of the books themselves which have an 'escatological' (if that is the right word) feel about them ie 'Against All Things Ending' and 'The Last Dark'.
So the world is ending. That doesn't mean it never existed in the first place. I don't see how this argument is valid. It's like saying that someone that's about to die was never really alive in the first place.
- Orlion
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I'll have to find the quote, and we know how long that'll take
But here's how Donaldson views the issue of Unbelief:
Covenant has this quandry, is the Land real or not real? If it is real, his sanity is threatened, as he reverts to being a leper in the real world (coupled with him being indoctrinated to act as a leper) but then he is also responsible for his actions and fighting Foul. If the Land isn't real, then it can all be written off as a dream... but than it doesn't really mean anything in the end, or rather its importance is lessened greatly.
At the end, Covenant decides there's a third option. He refuses to accept the Land is real (preserving his sanity) but decides it's something worth striving for (preserving its value). He doesn't resolve the question but picks and chooses the best parts that benefit him the most. He lives, the original question ceases to have any meaning.
So in the Second Chronicles, the question of the Land's reality no longer matters. It's never resolved, nor does it need to be, it's not important to Covenant anymore, he's gotten over it. And Linden? Well, she's a different person altogether and doesn't have the leper mindset. To her, the Land's 'reality' doesn't matter to her as much as it did to Covenant.

But here's how Donaldson views the issue of Unbelief:
Covenant has this quandry, is the Land real or not real? If it is real, his sanity is threatened, as he reverts to being a leper in the real world (coupled with him being indoctrinated to act as a leper) but then he is also responsible for his actions and fighting Foul. If the Land isn't real, then it can all be written off as a dream... but than it doesn't really mean anything in the end, or rather its importance is lessened greatly.
At the end, Covenant decides there's a third option. He refuses to accept the Land is real (preserving his sanity) but decides it's something worth striving for (preserving its value). He doesn't resolve the question but picks and chooses the best parts that benefit him the most. He lives, the original question ceases to have any meaning.
So in the Second Chronicles, the question of the Land's reality no longer matters. It's never resolved, nor does it need to be, it's not important to Covenant anymore, he's gotten over it. And Linden? Well, she's a different person altogether and doesn't have the leper mindset. To her, the Land's 'reality' doesn't matter to her as much as it did to Covenant.
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- peter
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Does that mean Orlion for us, the reader, that the question of the Lands reality or otherwise must also remain unresolved. Must we (or indeed are we intended by SRD to also be locked into Covenants compromise. I think such clues as are given point to the Lands 'reality' somewhere, someplace, albeit in another 'dimension' where things are markedly different.
As I said earlier I believe the dilemma was resolved at the end of series 1 for us and quite possibly for TC as well (did he not also hear the doctors words about the 'miricle' of his recovery). This would mean that by the 2nd Chrons his belief in the Land was established (nb the use uf the title 'Unbeliever has now been abandoned in the books title page - they are simply 'the second chronicles of TC') and that his explanation to Linden is purely a means to furnish her with the mental equipment that had saved his sanity in the face of the impossibility of his position in the first Chons - and that, only until she had worked out her own means of survival until the Land chose to reveal it's reality to her also (which in its own way I believe it did).
(Incidentally I wonder if our respective positions re the Lands existence (I mean all Watchers, not just those participating in this thread) or otherwise is in any way correlated with our position re the existence or otherwise of God ie fundamentalist atheists also being stout Land reality deniers, and Land reality believers also being God believers as well
)
As I said earlier I believe the dilemma was resolved at the end of series 1 for us and quite possibly for TC as well (did he not also hear the doctors words about the 'miricle' of his recovery). This would mean that by the 2nd Chrons his belief in the Land was established (nb the use uf the title 'Unbeliever has now been abandoned in the books title page - they are simply 'the second chronicles of TC') and that his explanation to Linden is purely a means to furnish her with the mental equipment that had saved his sanity in the face of the impossibility of his position in the first Chons - and that, only until she had worked out her own means of survival until the Land chose to reveal it's reality to her also (which in its own way I believe it did).
Spoiler
Shoe, I think the world (or Land's) ending is seen more in terms of it's never having existed at all outside of TC's mind, in the projections of many 3rd Chron readers. This in many respects is a more damning situation (for both TC and us, the reader) than say it's physical destuction by more conventional means. On the points of TC's assumption of multiple charachters in his 'dream', again it is not a problem I personally have to face because as I have said, I fall firmly into the camp of the Land being for real. I certainly see the assumption of Lindens charachter as difficult and also that of Hile Troy. I could go further and say that the use of multiple 'charachter perspectives' in the first two series may even be viewed as evidence of the Lands reality as oposed to imaginary status, but this might be pushing things a bit to far.

President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- shadowbinding shoe
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peter wrote:Does that mean Orlion for us, the reader, that the question of the Lands reality or otherwise must also remain unresolved. Must we (or indeed are we intended by SRD to also be locked into Covenants compromise. I think such clues as are given point to the Lands 'reality' somewhere, someplace, albeit in another 'dimension' where things are markedly different.
As I said earlier I believe the dilemma was resolved at the end of series 1 for us and quite possibly for TC as well (did he not also hear the doctors words about the 'miricle' of his recovery). This would mean that by the 2nd Chrons his belief in the Land was established (nb the use uf the title 'Unbeliever has now been abandoned in the books title page - they are simply 'the second chronicles of TC') and that his explanation to Linden is purely a means to furnish her with the mental equipment that had saved his sanity in the face of the impossibility of his position in the first Chons - and that, only until she had worked out her own means of survival until the Land chose to reveal it's reality to her also (which in its own way I believe it did).
(Incidentally I wonder if our respective positions re the Lands existence (I mean all Watchers, not just those participating in this thread) or otherwise is in any way correlated with our position re the existence or otherwise of God ie fundamentalist atheists also being stout Land reality deniers, and Land reality believers also being God believers as wellSpoiler
Shoe, I think the world (or Land's) ending is seen more in terms of it's never having existed at all outside of TC's mind, in the projections of many 3rd Chron readers. This in many respects is a more damning situation (for both TC and us, the reader) than say it's physical destuction by more conventional means. On the points of TC's assumption of multiple charachters in his 'dream', again it is not a problem I personally have to face because as I have said, I fall firmly into the camp of the Land being for real. I certainly see the assumption of Lindens charachter as difficult and also that of Hile Troy. I could go further and say that the use of multiple 'charachter perspectives' in the first two series may even be viewed as evidence of the Lands reality as oposed to imaginary status, but this might be pushing things a bit to far.)
Spoiler
I still don't see how 3rd chronicle's end of the world means it was all in Covenant's head. Is it a a technique readers use to make them feel easier about all the deaths and destruction that's happening? (And come on, the guy's been dead for a decade now. Is all this imagination taking place in the mind of the worms living in his grave?)

- peter
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Spoiler
I think a lot of people believe the Land will be revealed as imaginary in the narrative, rather than just destroyed physically at the end of series 3.

President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- Vraith
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I honestly think the reality/unreality will remain undetermined even at the end.
Schroedinger's Meta-state Decology.
Schroedinger's Meta-state Decology.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
- Zarathustra
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I think some of you are taking the "dream" idea too literally, presenting a false dichotomy. The two choices facing us aren't simply real/unreal. As Donaldson has said he thinks of the Land's reality as even more real than our world, in the Platonic sense. The "realm" of universal truths. Transcendent truths that aren't merely "in our heads" like a dream.
I am absolutely sure that this series will not end with it all being a dream. But I don't think the Land is objectively real like our world, either.
But then again, maybe our world isn't as "real" as we think of it (Newtonian, materialistic, purely objective, deterministic, fully explicable, etc.)
I am absolutely sure that this series will not end with it all being a dream. But I don't think the Land is objectively real like our world, either.
But then again, maybe our world isn't as "real" as we think of it (Newtonian, materialistic, purely objective, deterministic, fully explicable, etc.)
Last edited by Zarathustra on Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Vraith
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Heh...you're starting to overlap territory of my Grand Theory. I know a number of places I've discussed my idea that the land is where the Ideal is present inside the Material, so is in conflict by it's very nature [I think you liked the idea, IIRC?]. The other part I've spoken of less [and don't think I've said it directly] is that in the land, expressed through the nature of the "magics", axiological things have a "reality" parallel to our normal worlds relation of, for instance, trigonometry to engineering.Zarathustra wrote:I think some of you are taking the "dream" idea too literally, presenting a false dichotomy. The two choices facing us aren't simply real/unreal. As Donaldson has said be thinks of the Land's reality as even more real than our world, in the Platonic sense. The "realm" of universal truths. Transcendent truths that aren't merely "in our heads" like a dream.
I am absolutely sure that this series will not end with it all being a dream. But I don't think the Land is objectively real like our world, either.
But then again, maybe our world isn't as "real" as we think of it (Newtonian, materialistic, purely objective, deterministic, fully explicable, etc.)
The land in many ways is a place where there is, roughly, a calculus of morality and aesthetics.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
- peter
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Do you mean Vraith, that the poeple of the Lands moral/ethical positions are manifest in the physical in the form of magic/theurgy, and that the nature of this (magic) for any individual/group is a reflection of their particular position on the 'good to evil' axis. (nb The Grand Theory I have heard you refer to before but this is the first time I have seen it articulated and I like it.)
(Hooray - at long last I've been despoiled. No seriously guys - I knew I was getting into dodgy ground with the 3rd chron references, but this topic is a hard one to discuss without taking the story to date as a whole. I tried to keep my references as general as possible to not divulge any story lines from series 3 but sorry if I misjudged this).
(Hooray - at long last I've been despoiled. No seriously guys - I knew I was getting into dodgy ground with the 3rd chron references, but this topic is a hard one to discuss without taking the story to date as a whole. I tried to keep my references as general as possible to not divulge any story lines from series 3 but sorry if I misjudged this).
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- Vraith
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Almost, but not quite, if I'm reading you correctly. The moral/ethical/aesthetic are manifest and visible and the people can see it [when they meet a stranger, they don't have to communicate or watch their actions to find out if they're "good" like we do...it shows, it's palpable]. Like ordinary forces in our world, they would exist even if the people weren't there to perceive/manifest them. The people take their position in relation to the material existence of the ethical/aesthetic. Just like we don't "manifest" gravity, it's real, and we respond in relation to its realness. And the minor quibble that it's more the effects of an individual/groups magic that reveals their position. I mean, for instance, Earthpower is basically "positive" by nature...but bad can be done with it. And the changed ur-viles can do "good" with their lore. And [speculation] if the croyel weren't evil themselves, their "feeding" might be more like a true symbiosis, [kisses and a nice neck massage instead of fanged gnawing and pain] and all day long both parts could do good.peter wrote:Do you mean Vraith, that the poeple of the Lands moral/ethical positions are manifest in the physical in the form of magic/theurgy, and that the nature of this (magic) for any individual/group is a reflection of their particular position on the 'good to evil' axis. (nb The Grand Theory I have heard you refer to before but this is the first time I have seen it articulated and I like it.)
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
- peter
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Wow Vraith - I think it's going to take a while for me to get my head round that. I'm never the sharpest pencil in the box when it comes to taking on board new ideas that complicate what I had previousely (and clearly often mistakenly) percived as simple.
Now (at the risk of exposing my dullness) can I ask, is the 'manifestation' of health sense (which if I recall correctly which results from existing in an 'ether' of Earthpower that emanates from the very ground up) akin in your scheme to say, falling down the stairs because we live in a 'feild' of gravity ie the health sense and the 'falling downness' are not properties of individuals, but rather manifestations of the nature of the physical laws in which they/we exist. I can see the case for this simple paralell but where I'm ...........damn it vraith, I'm struggling to put into words even what 'I' want to say so how the hell can I ever expect to understand what 'you' are trying to get across! Can you just explain to me as simply as it can be done for a dolt like me what you mean by " The Land in many ways is a place where there is a calculus of morality and aesthetics". I know what calculus is roughly (something to do with infinitesimal changes aproaching toward zero and their effect on independant variables or the like), morality and aesthetics I can make a fist at - but I can't tie the three up. This I need to have explained to me - and if I can't get it (which is quite possible) then I'll leave it alone ( promise
.
(Is there anywhere where the 'Grand Theory' is fleshed out for wholesale consumption in one place as it were.)
Now (at the risk of exposing my dullness) can I ask, is the 'manifestation' of health sense (which if I recall correctly which results from existing in an 'ether' of Earthpower that emanates from the very ground up) akin in your scheme to say, falling down the stairs because we live in a 'feild' of gravity ie the health sense and the 'falling downness' are not properties of individuals, but rather manifestations of the nature of the physical laws in which they/we exist. I can see the case for this simple paralell but where I'm ...........damn it vraith, I'm struggling to put into words even what 'I' want to say so how the hell can I ever expect to understand what 'you' are trying to get across! Can you just explain to me as simply as it can be done for a dolt like me what you mean by " The Land in many ways is a place where there is a calculus of morality and aesthetics". I know what calculus is roughly (something to do with infinitesimal changes aproaching toward zero and their effect on independant variables or the like), morality and aesthetics I can make a fist at - but I can't tie the three up. This I need to have explained to me - and if I can't get it (which is quite possible) then I'll leave it alone ( promise

(Is there anywhere where the 'Grand Theory' is fleshed out for wholesale consumption in one place as it were.)
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- Vraith
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Last things first...no there is not consolidation of it. I keep threatening to do it, but first I want the last book to be done...it's a useless interpretation if the ending somehow contradicts it. And second, it would be enormous. I'm guessing 30 real pages minimum, and real work/research/analysis to justify it. Not sure I'm up for the task.
I'll try to be as clear/concise as possible for you [which isn't actually that easy, because it isn't totally clear/concise in my own thoughts...I find it highly unlikely that you are as dull/unsharpened as you claim, so you aren't the problem, it's just as likely...perhaps more likely...to be me].
So:
In our real world, there is the Math's.
And there is the Material [energy and forces count as material]
We know they have a relationship. The "properties" of math and "properties" of material somehow connect. If they didn't math would be useless, but in fact it's one of the most useful tools we have.
OTOH, they also cannot coexist in the same "place."
A perfect, "ideal" sphere is literally impossible in the material world.
A material Earth is literally impossible in an "ideal" realm.
Thus my conclusion that even if LF were purely good, he is Ideal and therefore his presence in the material would cause conflict/destruction eventually, no matter his intentions/orientation. That's that part. I propose that, unlike our world, a similar thing is true for the aesthetic/moral. Don't take it too literally, it's analogy, but: beings like the Creator and LF are the "math," the "ideal" of ethics/aesthetics. And there is the Land. [magic counts as material] They have a relationship, somehow connect...but are also mutually exclusive. Whatever the relationship between maths, the equations that describe gravity and the material existence of gravity, a similar thing is so for what Creator/LF are [they are fundamentally ethical/aesthetic, non-material beings] and material existence of earthpower, healthsense, etc. So your statement about "falling downness" seems to me to be pretty damn good. [so much for you not getting your head around things].
I'll try to be as clear/concise as possible for you [which isn't actually that easy, because it isn't totally clear/concise in my own thoughts...I find it highly unlikely that you are as dull/unsharpened as you claim, so you aren't the problem, it's just as likely...perhaps more likely...to be me].
So:
In our real world, there is the Math's.
And there is the Material [energy and forces count as material]
We know they have a relationship. The "properties" of math and "properties" of material somehow connect. If they didn't math would be useless, but in fact it's one of the most useful tools we have.
OTOH, they also cannot coexist in the same "place."
A perfect, "ideal" sphere is literally impossible in the material world.
A material Earth is literally impossible in an "ideal" realm.
Thus my conclusion that even if LF were purely good, he is Ideal and therefore his presence in the material would cause conflict/destruction eventually, no matter his intentions/orientation. That's that part. I propose that, unlike our world, a similar thing is true for the aesthetic/moral. Don't take it too literally, it's analogy, but: beings like the Creator and LF are the "math," the "ideal" of ethics/aesthetics. And there is the Land. [magic counts as material] They have a relationship, somehow connect...but are also mutually exclusive. Whatever the relationship between maths, the equations that describe gravity and the material existence of gravity, a similar thing is so for what Creator/LF are [they are fundamentally ethical/aesthetic, non-material beings] and material existence of earthpower, healthsense, etc. So your statement about "falling downness" seems to me to be pretty damn good. [so much for you not getting your head around things].
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
- Orlion
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Something to remember is that people don't always have the health sense, even if they are in the Land. In some cases, it seems like you have to believe in it to have it (I think Atairan said something to that effect in Lord Foul's Bane) and at other times, it seems to inflict itself on people more likely to want to serve it (In the Second Chronicles, Linden is the only one with the health sense for a while. It's interesting, because I don't think she believed in it to begin with, she just had the personality where she wanted to heal everything).peter wrote:Wow Vraith - I think it's going to take a while for me to get my head round that. I'm never the sharpest pencil in the box when it comes to taking on board new ideas that complicate what I had previousely (and clearly often mistakenly) percived as simple.
Now (at the risk of exposing my dullness) can I ask, is the 'manifestation' of health sense (which if I recall correctly which results from existing in an 'ether' of Earthpower that emanates from the very ground up) akin in your scheme to say, falling down the stairs because we live in a 'feild' of gravity ie the health sense and the 'falling downness' are not properties of individuals, but rather manifestations of the nature of the physical laws in which they/we exist. I can see the case for this simple paralell but where I'm ...........damn it vraith, I'm struggling to put into words even what 'I' want to say so how the hell can I ever expect to understand what 'you' are trying to get across! Can you just explain to me as simply as it can be done for a dolt like me what you mean by " The Land in many ways is a place where there is a calculus of morality and aesthetics". I know what calculus is roughly (something to do with infinitesimal changes aproaching toward zero and their effect on independant variables or the like), morality and aesthetics I can make a fist at - but I can't tie the three up. This I need to have explained to me - and if I can't get it (which is quite possible) then I'll leave it alone ( promise.
(Is there anywhere where the 'Grand Theory' is fleshed out for wholesale consumption in one place as it were.)
Of course, the natural eminence of Earthpower is a very important aspect of it as well, I believe.
(And no worries, Peter, I understand the want/need to bring the Last Chronicles into discussions such as these... it is very difficult not to, but that's why I'm here

'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- peter
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Orlion - was I right about that 'health sense is a manifestation of living in an 'ether' of Earthpower emanating from the presence of Earthsblood (the stuff in the river under Melenkurion Skyweir) in the ground' thing. I was a bit worried about that after I had written it (I know where the idea came from but it would be a definite spoiler to spell it out).
Thanks a million for your patience (and kind words) Vraith. That is a great synopsis and very clear in it's 'train of meaning'. I think I begin to grasp where you are coming from with this (if only at a rudimentary level
).
Seriously Vraith - The Grand Theory deserves to be presented in it's entirity (granted after the Publication of the final work) even - in fact all the more so - if it takes 30 pages to do so. If the ending contradicts the Theory my bet would be that it would be more a case of SRD haveing 'moved the goalposts' (by no means impossible if, as I proposed earlier, the last series was never really intended to be written) than the Theory having been erronious from the start. As such my feeling would be that the interpretation would have even more reason to be given an airing in that it might actualy be a truer insight into what was originally intended than we have in the finally completed work. This may be wrong, but it has to be worth thinking about - and I for one will await it's presentation should it happen with keen anticipation.
Thanks a million for your patience (and kind words) Vraith. That is a great synopsis and very clear in it's 'train of meaning'. I think I begin to grasp where you are coming from with this (if only at a rudimentary level

Seriously Vraith - The Grand Theory deserves to be presented in it's entirity (granted after the Publication of the final work) even - in fact all the more so - if it takes 30 pages to do so. If the ending contradicts the Theory my bet would be that it would be more a case of SRD haveing 'moved the goalposts' (by no means impossible if, as I proposed earlier, the last series was never really intended to be written) than the Theory having been erronious from the start. As such my feeling would be that the interpretation would have even more reason to be given an airing in that it might actualy be a truer insight into what was originally intended than we have in the finally completed work. This may be wrong, but it has to be worth thinking about - and I for one will await it's presentation should it happen with keen anticipation.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
- shadowbinding shoe
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Vraith - I think what you say about the incompatibility of the Material and the Ideal is more what Platonist philosophers believed and not what Physicists believe. Physicists just think they haven't found (or refined) the right equations to describe our world perfectly yet so they make do with the imperfect mathematical models (imperfect in the sense that they're descriptions of a world only very like our own) they currently have. Not that this invalidates your theory in any way.Vraith wrote:Last things first...no there is not consolidation of it. I keep threatening to do it, but first I want the last book to be done...it's a useless interpretation if the ending somehow contradicts it. And second, it would be enormous. I'm guessing 30 real pages minimum, and real work/research/analysis to justify it. Not sure I'm up for the task.
I'll try to be as clear/concise as possible for you [which isn't actually that easy, because it isn't totally clear/concise in my own thoughts...I find it highly unlikely that you are as dull/unsharpened as you claim, so you aren't the problem, it's just as likely...perhaps more likely...to be me].
So:
In our real world, there is the Math's.
And there is the Material [energy and forces count as material]
We know they have a relationship. The "properties" of math and "properties" of material somehow connect. If they didn't math would be useless, but in fact it's one of the most useful tools we have.
OTOH, they also cannot coexist in the same "place."
A perfect, "ideal" sphere is literally impossible in the material world.
A material Earth is literally impossible in an "ideal" realm.
Thus my conclusion that even if LF were purely good, he is Ideal and therefore his presence in the material would cause conflict/destruction eventually, no matter his intentions/orientation. That's that part. I propose that, unlike our world, a similar thing is true for the aesthetic/moral. Don't take it too literally, it's analogy, but: beings like the Creator and LF are the "math," the "ideal" of ethics/aesthetics. And there is the Land. [magic counts as material] They have a relationship, somehow connect...but are also mutually exclusive. Whatever the relationship between maths, the equations that describe gravity and the material existence of gravity, a similar thing is so for what Creator/LF are [they are fundamentally ethical/aesthetic, non-material beings] and material existence of earthpower, healthsense, etc. So your statement about "falling downness" seems to me to be pretty damn good. [so much for you not getting your head around things].
- Vraith
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You are right. And O is too in saying some don't have it [before Berek I'm not sure anyone of the normal humans had it].peter wrote:Orlion - was I right about that 'health sense is a manifestation of living in an 'ether' of Earthpower emanating from the presence of Earthsblood (the stuff in the river under Melenkurion Skyweir) in the ground' thing. I was a bit worried about that after I had written it (I know where the idea came from but it would be a definite spoiler to spell it out).
On it seeming like you almost have to believe, I don't recall that particular thing with Atiaran [which doesn't mean it's not there...heh.] yet it is true that major keys are intuition and passion, both certainly related to belief.
[Linden is bursting at the seams with those, even if they're driven by dark events that make her rechannel/misdirect them.]
[and as a side note: passion/intuition/belief are also certainly intimately intertwined with ethics/aesthetics...again, in our world something ineffable and we argue/try to explain it...in the Land it's a material force, practically pokes Lindens eyes out cuz it's twisted/corrupted].
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
- Running Amok
- Servant of the Land
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Re: The Chronicles as Allegory
This was certainly Donaldson's intention when he structured this story the way he did - he's stated on numerous occasions that his ideal of a high fantasy story is one in which an internal psychological or spiritual conflict is manifested as a narrative in an external world.Lord Verement wrote:I have always viewed the Land and the story as an allegory (not sure if this is correct literary definition) for TC. He enters the Land and he is actually entering himself. The various parts of the Land are parts of himself
For the love of God everybody, do yourself a favor and read his essay on the subject.
I'd like to take one passage in this essay, where he talks about Tolkien: "Tolkien argued passionately that Lord of the Rings wasn't allegory. Well his passion is understandable, using the narrative tools of allegory, he was actually writing fiction far more complex than allegory." Indeed. And if Donaldson sought to emulate Tolkien in this respect, I'd say this is a case of the student ultimately succeeding the master. The Chronicles are nothing short of a work of literary alchemy. We're getting several different narratives here - Thomas Covenant in the "real world", Thomas Covenant in the Land and Thomas Covenant inside his own head. These narratives all intertwine with one another is ways that become ever more fascinating once you start to figure out how to decode the enigma.
Consider the concept of "Law," something that comes up often in the Chronicles. "Law" is defined as a set of rules or strictures that govern how something behaves. Natural laws, positive law and codes of ethics qualify. Donaldson seems to be telling us to beware of excessive reliance on "law" to govern our behavior, and it certainly doesn't excuse right or wrong actions when all is said and done.
In the Chronicles, we have the "laws of leprosy" that seem to govern how TC acts, we have the staff of law in the land and we have recurring appearances of persons and institutions associated with Law in the real world - he passes by the courthouse wherein he lost his family in divorce preceedings (note the GIANT heads atop the columns) is nearly hit by a police car at the start of LFB while going to visit his lawyer. He is manhandled by the county sherrif in TIW and in the PTP, said sherrif tries to rezone Haven Farm in such a manner as to force Covenant to move, his conversations with his own lawyer Megan Roman through it all. Courthouses, police cars, layers, sherrifs, zoning procedures - all deal with Law in some way, shape or form.
The idea towards Law being reflected in these stories is that "Law is not opposed to Despite." It can help, but isn't ultimately the answer. Adherance to the "laws of leprosy" will not stop the disease from eventually killing TC. Foul tells Covenant upon his arrival in the Land that the very "Laws" that Kevin sought to uphold preserved Foul's own existance through the desecration. Rough paralells between the real world and the Land regarding this motif of law do reveal in interesting dual narrative approach taken in the 1st Chronicles:
Law does not stop Joan and Roger from leaving TC - "no compassionate law could force a woman to stay with such a man" - The Staff of Law does not give Lord Kevin sufficient power to check Foul. Covenant seeks legal redress against the townsfolk paying his bills for him - Prothall and the new lords seek the Staff of Law. A certain thematic similarity - light and luminousness - exists between the wraiths of andelain and the electrical power at Haven Farm. The moon in the land glows red - the siren of the police car nearly injures him - Drool Rockworm gets the Staff of Law and nearly uses it to destroy the land. But Prothall gets the Staff, the quest narrowly saved and Foul's assault on the land delayed - the police car does not injure Covenant and his lawyer thinks she can intimidate the corrupt town sherrif against allowing further vandalism of Covenant's property (the parallel between the burning of Joan's stables and the burning of Soaring Woodhelven is actually directly referenced in the opening of The Illearth War).
Whatever legal protection Ms. Roman is able to get for Covenant he loses after his disasterous trip to the night club - the staff of law is lost again in the roots of the earth. Law falls, both literally and figuratively, into the hands of despite. Sherrif Lytton uses a legal means to attack Haven Farm - to have it rezoned. The despiser, via Elena Foulwife, uses the Staff of Law to attack Revelstone (note that the house at haven farm has been arranged for TC's protection - removal of sharp corners and such - alludes to the security of Revelstone).
A dismal situation, but all is not lost. Covenant begins to abandon the laws of leprosy (destroys the staff of law), and performs an act of heroism in drawing the venom (illearth stone) from the body of the little girl (the land) - challenging despite both inside and out. This in turn allows his Lawyer Megan Roman (Mhoram) to save Haven Farm (Revelstone) via their own dedication. This is all done via extra legal means - Mhoram bends the oath of peace while Ms. Roman utilizes local media to call attention to Covenant's real world heroics. In all three instances, decisive action motivated by human concern and consideration take precedence over strict legality.
The moral of the story here seems to be that "Law" - either in the form of positive law or ethical codes of conduct like the vow of the bloodguard, the oath of peace and the "laws" of leprosy do have their uses, they are no substitutes for human values and considerations in the guidance of our actions.
There's actually a band called Lord Foul. Wouldn't go see them though - too many ravers at his shows! Waka Waka Waka!