Kevin's Watch

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Why does it always have to be grief and loss? Like I said, why don't the survivors enjoy their victory and live life exuberantly?

Hashi, the primary event in this phenomenon is the loss of the other and thus the primary emotion is grief. A common initial response of the surviving twin is not joy at survival but a longing to follow the lost twin. It is only much later, when the lost other has been properly acknowledged and their loss fully grieved, that the lone twin can begin to embrace life with the added richness of knowing how fortunate they are.

u.

I have some of the same issues with this theory as you, Hashi, but I think you can miss something you never had. Look at the terrible experiments of deprivation. A lack of something can affect one profoundly. At some level, we must be aware of the experience of being in the womb. See fetal positions some people go into, et cetera. So there must be some sort of formative experience there. If there was company that was removed, would it affect us so profoundly? I don't know.

However, I am with you on being rather skeptical of this twin theory for explaining behaviour patterns. I also do not prefer a victimhood stance. But, I am open to that it might have some merit. How much? Who can say. I think the problem with some of this type of thing is that the person who seeks a victimhood state can cling to it and use it as a shield to not affect change in their current life. But that complaint can go for many such things.

One thing I have noticed when dealing with maths and probability is that people will tend toward finding a way to 'control' it whether this method of control is real or not. People do not like to feel out of control and want explanations and reasons, even if they are false. Look at science v religion.

Ananda wrote:...I think you can miss something you never had...

I dunno...which experiments depriving people of what?

I'm of the "if you don't know something exists, then to you it's the same as if it didn't" persuasion. (And vice versa of course, if you're convinced something exists, then it's the same as if it does, to you anyway.)

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:It is simply a limitation of mine that I have great difficulty tolerating the behavior and personality of people who have a victim mentality. *shrug* At least I know that I have the limitation and can be honest with myself about it. Of course, I am also honest about it when I state that I will not change to become more tolerant of victim mentality people--to me it is a false way of living.

Uh-huh? The real question is how you define that, and what you use to measure it.

--A

Avatar wrote:

Ananda wrote:...I think you can miss something you never had...

I dunno...which experiments depriving people of what?

those sickening deprivation experiments they did with monkeys when they took them away from their mother at birth and gave them a wire frame to hug.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:It is simply a limitation of mine that I have great difficulty tolerating the behavior and personality of people who have a victim mentality. *shrug* At least I know that I have the limitation and can be honest with myself about it. Of course, I am also honest about it when I state that I will not change to become more tolerant of victim mentality people--to me it is a false way of living.

Hashi, I agree with you in relation to the idea of the 'victim mentality', this is a very limiting and frustrating way to live in the world. Unfortunately it is often facilitated and reinforced by the less scrupulous 'healing' professions because it creates a steady cash-flow for them.

A vital part of real healing involves making it clear to the individual that they are wholly responsible for their life in the present. Regardless of what may have occurred in past (unless the person is being being actively constrained in the present by someone else) each person has complete control over how they choose to live their life.

In saying that, each person should also fully acknowledge their reality. Most people have the experience of feeling comfortable and secure in themselves and their life and (for a variety of reasons) some people have a different experience. For such a person to act as if they they feel secure would be inauthentic (and would most likely eventually lead to one sort of problem or another). This doesn't mean that the person has the right to refuse to take responsibility for their life, but it does mean that it is important that their different experience is acknowledged.

Personally I am fortunate to have a very understanding family and a great bunch of friends. The people around me are used to my far-out ideas and theories

ussusimiel

ussusimiel wrote:Personally I am fortunate to have a very understanding family and a great bunch of friends. The people around me are used to my far-out ideas and theories

Then you are doing better then probably 85% of the world who do not have those kinds of people in their lives.

Ananda wrote:those sickening deprivation experiments they did with monkeys when they took them away from their mother at birth and gave them a wire frame to hug.

That is pretty terrible.

But it doesn't mean that you can miss something you never had. Now, I'll grant you that you might be affected by not having something that you don't know exists, but that is not the same as missing it.

--A

Avatar wrote:

Ananda wrote:those sickening deprivation experiments they did with monkeys when they took them away from their mother at birth and gave them a wire frame to hug.

That is pretty terrible.

But it doesn't mean that you can miss something you never had. Now, I'll grant you that you might be affected by not having something that you don't know exists, but that is not the same as missing it.

--A

I'm sorry if my wording wasn't perfect. But I think you see that it affected the being strongly and can see that the issue in this case is real.

All that's real in this particular case is that people are experiencing certain feelings/whatever. Maybe saying that its due to a missing twin is an easy way out? Other underlying causes are also possible.

I can't remember...is there a way they can actually prove whether or not somebody had a missing twin?

--A

Avatar wrote:All that's real in this particular case is that people are experiencing certain feelings/whatever. Maybe saying that its due to a missing twin is an easy way out? Other underlying causes are also possible.

I can't remember...is there a way they can actually prove whether or not somebody had a missing twin?

--A

I am not saying I think this theory is true. I said the opposite. I just was saying that a lack of something can affect you.

Ah, thought you meant this specific case.

Yes, a lack of lots of things can affect you. That doesn't mean you miss them though.

If you were raised entirely in the dark, you wouldn't miss light, even though the lack of it will affect you.

--A

Avatar wrote:Yes, a lack of lots of things can affect you. That doesn't mean you miss them though.

If you were raised entirely in the dark, you wouldn't miss light, even though the lack of it will affect you.

This is a good analogy, though I would use it in a different way. Imagine that you experienced life with light before your memory or consciousness had developed (I know Av doesn't agree that this is useful speculation ) and then the light was removed and you were raised in the dark. The sense that something was lost (which you don't remember) might remain at some level.

That's quite poetic, Av. You don't happen to write poems, do you?

ussusimiel

Hahahaha, yes I do happen to. There should be a few of them floating round the Hall of Gifts if you're interested enough to hunt them down.

The key point there is might of course.



--A

Avatar wrote:Hahahaha, yes I do happen to. There should be a few of them floating round the Hall of Gifts if you're interested enough to hunt them down.

I checked them out and enjoyed them. Funny that I knew they'd be short compared to our American friends. If it isn't a haiku, it's Walt Whitman

u.

Go find LuciMay's.

--A

*bump*

I changed the title of this, removed some old links and added a new one. I'm bumping just in case anyone had read it over the last while and found only broken links.

u.