Harmonics

[DoctorGamgee]

Thanks, Aliantha. As to your question:

Wasn't some of the perceived dissonance in Bach's work due to the limitations of the instruments at the time? I seem to remember something about technical advances allowing a truer reproduction of chromatics. Altho that doesn't explain some of the weird (to us) intervals in medieval choral music, I guess.

In reality, there is a lot happening all at the same time. Instruments are getting better during this time. However the 'truer' reproduction of the chromatics is more of a 'conformity to equal-temperment' -- remember his Wohltempered Klavier is the "Well Tempered Keyboard" where all 12 were equal. I am sure at the time, until the tuning became more universal, there were some really pitchy versions being played.

And fist is correct; though many refer to these modes as "church" modes. Music was taught by rote until notation was developed for pitch (numes) found in gregorian chant. But the church had rules. No 1/2 octaves (the dreaded Tri-tone or il diabolo in musica ... the Devil in Music!) were forbidden. Play B & F at the same time and invariably the average western ear wants them to move: Fa down to Mi, Ti up to Do. And since the piano doesn't know which is which (i.e. what key you are referencing) you can do that by moving them inward to C+E, or outward to A#+F# (Gb+Bb if you prefer...). If you sing Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Ti... You will discover that your ears REALLY want you to sing Do again. even if you just do it in your head.

So rules were implanted, then styles came and now rules are broken. We toyed with serialism for a while, trying to defuse the "tonal center" mentality. But outside of a certain selection of the populace it never took off. Expanded tertian harmony (Jazz, Blues) has become quite popular, and as such, more dissonance has been publicly accepted -- that as long as the lack of resolution is within our framework.

But COULD it have been different...perhaps. But we like patterns. There is a reason why each week has 7 days and not alternating 6/8/5/9/7 which would break the monotony (like the occasional 3 day weekend!).

And your preference is quite normal. The music is less complex, but follows strict rules of part writing which , once understood are greatly fulfilling.

But I try to listen to as much of different kinds as I can...keeps me on my toes.

Doc

[Vraith]

though many refer to these modes as "church" modes.

The thing that makes me laugh about that is that in western now music the place the average person is most likely to hear those modes is in various Metal manifestations.

And hey, Fist...WHICH Dorian do you thing would have won out?...IIRC there are 3 different ones?

[Fist and Faith]

The "Sammy key"? That's what happens when you post from a glorified phone!

And you wouldn't believe how many times I proofread everything before I post, just for that kind of reason!! And I have to select & copy the entire text every time I hit Preview or Submit, just in case the stupid connection at work kicks out at that moment. Which it usually does.


Regarding Bach's troubles, all I've ever heard or read was that they were just a bunch of prudes in the church, and he was doing something a little bit different. Variations and ornaments are cited more than dissonances. But even though the congregation really was thrown by it, he was really in trouble for another reason. He was given something like a three-week leave to go to another city to attend performances of one of his main influences, Buxtehude. Problem is, he stayed three months. Wandered back into town when it suited him, I guess.

[Fist and Faith]

And hey, Fist...WHICH Dorian do you thing would have won out?...IIRC there are 3 different ones?

I've never heard of different Dorians. Not sure what that means. I didn't study the modes that much, and it was a while ago. Looking up Dorian Mode on wikipedia shows some crazy stuff. Heh. The only thing I specifically remember was being told that the different modes tended to have their own melodic patterns at the ends of the pieces. Not that every chant in one mode always ended the same way, but maybe often, or with variations of the pattern. I did a short paper on the modes, though, and couldn't find any patterns for any of them. And that's about all I know about modes.

[Vraith]

The only thing I specifically remember was being told that the different modes tended to have their own melodic patterns at the ends of the pieces.

It's true, though it's been so long I don't recall any of that junk anymore. All I recall is that major key pieces have a strong tendency to end with chord progression I-6/4, V7, I. [where the 6/4 tells you what's in the bass...the inversion of the I chord, so in key of C would be a C chord [c, e, g, with the g as the bass note.] G7 [g,b,d,f] and resolves C again, with root note, C, in the bass]
I also THINK I recall that one of the "earlier" dorians is what we call phrygian nowadays, and the modern dorian [for sure] is the scale that starts on the second. So it shares the same key signature, for instance, as C, but scales and builds chords/harmony from D to D, instead of from C to C.

[DoctorGamgee]

Modes as I was taught them had two forms:

Dorian and Hypodorian
Phrygian and Hypophrygian

and so forth.

The difference between them was the range used, and the dominant note used within the chants for recitation The Final was the same for both.

Dorian had white notes D to D, but tended to use a lot of A and resolved/ended on D. Hypodorian used the same notes, but used a range below D down to A, and above D up to A, but the Dominant note was F (the third).

Those are the western Church Modes. Greek ones were different (there were three).

For what it is worth...

And vraith, yeah, you are right, though it is also present in folk music and works of Vaughan Williams. In his Songs of Travel, Let Beauty Awake is clearly modal.

Doc

[Fist and Faith]

You're right, Vraith, and I wasn't being specific enough. You're talking about what came along farther down the line. When the tonality we're familiar with, also called music of the "common practice period", was fairly established. I'm only talking about the modes, back when it was simple plainchant. Monophonic. No chords, not even two-note intervals. I was told even that stuff followed certain melodic patterns at cadences, and each mode had its own typical melodic patterns. But I couldn't find any. Not a difficult thing to look for in plainchant, but it wasn't there.

[aliantha]

If you sing Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Ti... You will discover that your ears REALLY want you to sing Do again. even if you just do it in your head.

Right. And as Vraith said, if you play a seventh chord (G7 in his example), it'll make you crazy 'til you play the tonic chord (C). Us Westerners need that resolution.

I picked up a Native American flute when I was in Arizona last year. The Navajo use a pentatonic scale. It's kind of restful.

[Vraith]

I picked up a Native American flute when I was in Arizona last year. The Navajo use a pentatonic scale. It's kind of restful.

Ah...see, now we're in something that relates back to the OP, perhaps. There's more than one kind of pentatonic, or course, to keep things from being too simple. But one particular kind [which I can no longer recall the name of] is found in numerous completely unrelated cultures worldwide and anciently. The art and the cultures and history have made many things happen in our flexible brains...but there are some things that seem "harmonious" or "dissonant" simply because of how our neurosystem is structured/built.

[aliantha]

Wikipedia claims the typical Native American flute is built on a minor pentatonic scale. I clicked through from there to this site, which has sound files for many of the notes, in case anybody's interested in how it sounds. Altho if you've heard anything by R. Carlos Nakai, you already know.

I think my flute is a tenor. There's no totem on it, but it's decorated. I should post a picture, huh?

[peter]

Two days at work and the thread has moved on significantly with many interesting and erudite posts to consider. I won't pretend that much if not most of what has been said has not gone over my head and for that reason I won't go down the route of exposing my dismal inability to make an intelligent contribution to the points already made.

There are a few things I thought I might add however, the first being that (as so often happens) again as soon as I posted my last contribution yet more examples of music that seems to 'disobey' the rules of harmony came to mind. I have mentioned 'experimental' classical music (is that how it is described) already and then we have 'freeform jazz' (again if my terminology is wrong I appologise and hope my meaning gets through). These forms of the art are as yet beyond me (more of which in a minute) but are clearly 'hitting the spot' with the rapt audiences I sometimes see at televised performences.

Bach's Toccata and Fugue that Hashi posted a link to earlier is of interest in that it seems to sit on the boarder of 'pleasant' to listen to and 'disharmonic'. Does it do this in the same way that if you take the process furthur you finish up in the apparent disharmony of the examples I give above (ie the oriental and free jazz styles) or is something else going on here (ignore the question if it is just rubbish - I'm quite aware this might be the case ) nb It strikes me suddenly that much of the problem I have with say Japanese Opera may be to do with the 'timing' of the music appearing irregular when compared to 'western' music.

Next point - I saw a very clever demonstration on television where an eminant musician took a group of completely nonmusical individuals, got them to select notes (from a specifically limited group I guess) blind and then showed that they made a perfectly servicable 'tune' when played in the order of their random selection, but repeated over and over, irrespective of the order of their selection. I guess the point was that with a given group of notes they are 'pre-ordained' to make a tune that will work (for us?) and that the composition of tunefull music is (at it's start) not as complicated as it might seem.

Lastly - going back to what we can like or not at any given time, some anecdotal points can be made. I work with two youngsters (20's) one of whom loves Amy Winehouse and hates Lana del Ray. The other Loves Lana del Ray but hates Amy Winehouse. I love them both. This fact that no matter whether we like or dislike a piece, type or whole genre of music or not, someone somewhere will like it, leads me to believe that the disliking of any piece/genre must be seen as an 'opportunity to like' that has so far not been achieved. If it was bad - no one would like it.
My musical tastes have moved and shifted like the dessret sands over the years. When young I hated reggae music. In the seventies when Marley came to prominence, almost on the strength of one reggae song that I liked, the whole genre was opened up to me. Similarly when young I was not at all impressed by 'Tamla Mowtown'. Over the years however it has worked it's magic on me and now I'm an ardent fan (no single piece here, just a gradual development). 'Classical' music was anathema to me as a boy - yet now I see a depth and beauty in it that can bring me close to tears at times. This was started for me by of all things a scene in a film. Tom Hanks in 'Philadelphia', dying of AID's listens to an operatic aria (to my shame I've forgotten which) and describes what is happening to his friend, how the music describes the emotional content, and I thought my God! - he's right and I was hooked from then on. Such are the ways that taste can develop over a lifetime so every time I hear a piece of Rap or Garage and feel the skin across my temples tighten I try to stop and say 'Hold on - someone loves this - the problem is with with you and maybe given time.....'

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

An interesting example of dissonance that somehow transcends itself: Jack Dangers: Zxero.

[peter]

Exellent Don! Is that 'Dance' music. I've seen 'the Prodigy' twice in their earlier days and sometimes they sounded similar. 'Daft Punk' is very high on my list of 'want to see's' again, perhaps a bit similar.