Kevin's Watch

Yeah, as essential as Angus was for the "good guys" to succeed, people just do not change dramatically. Angus is still Angus and the only "redeeming" development he had was that he may have felt bad for what he did to Morn.

And it took taking control completely from him to accomplish that.

Really, it says a lot more about Morn that she released Angus "for the good of humanity".

+JMJ+

Orlion wrote:Yeah, as essential as Angus was for the "good guys" to succeed, people just do not change dramatically. Angus is still Angus and the only "redeeming" development he had was that he may have felt bad for what he did to Morn.

Perhaps.

But we're also told that had Angus lost his taste for cold-blooded murder. Another change he didn't recognize.

And this was after Warden told had told him I trust you [to handle Holt]. Just do what comes naturally. Perhaps, he trusts Angus to dispatch him in a way that doesn't betray his humanity? That he trusts him to strive for the better?

And we're told multiple times through the books that Holt's heart had long been dodgy and that it was palpitating at the time. Mayhap he had simply died of fright?

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

Orlion wrote:Yeah, as essential as Angus was for the "good guys" to succeed, people just do not change dramatically. Angus is still Angus and the only "redeeming" development he had was that he may have felt bad for what he did to Morn.

Perhaps.

But we're also told that had Angus lost his taste for cold-blooded murder. Another change he didn't recognize.

And this was after Warden told had told him I trust you [to handle Holt]. Just do what comes naturally. Perhaps, he trusts Angus to dispatch him in a way that doesn't betray his humanity? That he trusts him to strive for the better?

And we're told multiple times through the books that Holt's heart had long been dodgy and that it was palpitating at the time. Mayhap he had simply died of fright?

Ah, ok. I had not remembered that detail, I blame not reading the series in years

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I am not scared by many things but the sight of Angus Thermopylae standing over me would be on that short list.

Oh, you bet your bippy. Me too.

Orl: as a general rule, peeps don't change that much. But there are exceptions.
And we can't forget just how MUCH of Angus has been changed, both body and brain physically, and THEN through radical experience on top of it.

Now, I don't much believe in redemption. [or--the desire/passion/need for it can be a great motivation/character driver, but it isn't a thing that is or can be.]
And I don't think Angus has suddenly become what you [or anyone] would call a nice guy...even if he wears a different color hat.
But he has made a new identity/self [that still includes the nasty shit he has been/done, and the ongoing costs of that].

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I am not scared by many things but the sight of Angus Thermopylae standing over me would be on that short list.

Ah, Hashi...yes, you in particular have ample justification for feeling that way.

Spoiler

Remember, though, that you know there is one more keyword that will affect Angus. Ward used two of the three, but that last one might be your best bet should you be faced with Angus standing before you.

Reading this thread makes me think I really need to re-read the series. I've forgotten so many of these details.

Savor Dam wrote: Ah, Hashi...yes, you in particular have ample justification for feeling that way.

I wouldn't even be cute or sly about it, either, I would just say it and get it over with. Since Angus doesn't know the word he can't search through his datacore and try to blank it out.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I wouldn't even be cute or sly about it, either, I would just say it and get it over with. Since Angus doesn't know the word he can't search through his datacore and try to blank it out.

Aww, I am rather disappointed, Director. Ward did such an artful job weaving the keywords he used into an entirely credible speech...and you have a reputation for no less subtlety than what he has done.

Yes, I am playing to your ego.

+JMJ+

Vraith wrote:

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:I am not scared by many things but the sight of Angus Thermopylae standing over me would be on that short list.

And I don't think Angus has suddenly become what you [or anyone] would call a nice guy...even if he wears a different color hat.
But he has made a new identity/self [that still includes the nasty shit he has been/done, and the ongoing costs of that].

Ya, ya. I don't think anyone's suggesting that Angus is suddenly ready for a stint in the Peace Corps.

I do think it's indicated that he's started upon the road to the Better. But as you say, it will be his road, with all of his past baggage and his strengths/weaknesses.

If you believe that Angus was ruled by fear because of the crib, and if you consider that escaping his datacore is tantamount to escaping the crib, then you can believe that Angus might no longer be ruled by fear, and so has lost the proclivity for self-service and evil.

wayfriend wrote:If you believe that Angus was ruled by fear because of the crib, and if you consider that escaping his datacore is tantamount to escaping the crib, then you can believe that Angus might no longer be ruled by fear, and so has lost the proclivity for self-service and evil.

Yes...escaped the crib. But his ID will always be informed by the crib. [he also learned a bit about who becomes crib-makers, and why, and how---and such cribs, though in many ways different shapes, materials, and purposes also have essential similarities.

Also, the crib may have sourced fear, self-service, and evil---
But what else was it a source for?
Determination.
Extravagance/extremity.
Survival.
Even the roots of compassion and justice.

I think that by story's end, Angus will follow a good path (with some profit-making mixed in somewhere along the way). I say this because Angus has the freedom to conduct business with that useful ship he's gotten from Holt, business that need not be piracy. And he has reason not to anger the GCES, because he can intuitively feel that the fatal word for him is still known to the police.

Cagliostro wrote:I think it is a bit difficult to compare the two, as I think Covenant books strike at the heart, and the Gap strikes at the mind, and to a degree, the gut. While I loved the characters and the well crafted story, I never got emotionally invested like I did with Covenant.

This is exactly how I feel. The emotional investment in the Covenant series makes me prefer them though.

Anyway, I finished the series a week ago and DAMN, the last two books were incredibly intense. So intense that I would usually go to bed at 4-5 in the morning because I just couldn't stop reading.

I loved the ending. I was a bit dissapointed however with Morn "forgiving" Angus (in a sense), although it was critical in order for her to find "a better answer". Angus redeemed himself as much as he could, but he still started off and still is irredeemable in my book for what he did.

Besides that, everything was great. The GCES council storyline was so captivating that I even read ahead, skipping past a few of the chapters from Punisher. Dios is an amazing character and I was very pleased that his master plan succeeded in the end.

All in all, I think the series is superbly written and its plot/characters are very complex. I still prefer the Chronicles books, for I love Covenant and the Land (there were way too many scenes which made me emotional), yet the Gap series managed to amaze me nonetheless.

Emotionally, I agree, the Chrons hit harder. But the Gap had it's emotional moments too. I prefer it for the writing...it's written better. It's clearer, and in some sense more visceral, I think.

--A

I remember skipping work to finish the Gap

I actually found the Chronicles more draining than the Gap series. The Gap was intense, exciting, brutal, intriguing, and definitely had emotional parts, whereas the chrons were emotionally draining, and not always in a good way. It's hard to compare because they are so different in every way.

I could not put down the last 3 Gap books. Maybe it's time for a re-read...

It's always time for a re-read.

--A

rdhopeca wrote:I could not put down the last 3 Gap books. Maybe it's time for a re-read...

Rob, I still remember when you read the series - at the speed of light from memory! I'm definitely going to do a re-read after I finish my current Iain Banks book. That's settled!

What Banks are you reading?

--A