Kevin's Watch

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Was Kevin suffering from the sin of pride? I can see why he didn't believe he could change Creation for the better to win his war with Foul (and the Demondim) but Amok mentions that he knew about the White Gold. He probably also had some knowledge of the other powerful races of his world. Yet he didn't seek help from anyone. He decided to face Foul by himself and fight him with his pain and rage.

I recall reading somewhere in the structured interview that Kevin's big flaw was that he had a "superman" complex, of sorts. He assumed too much responsibility for the well being of the Land - hence his ultimately ill fated decision to face Foul alone. Biting off more than he could chew, which should be pointed out as being a major theme in the Illearth War. All roads lead back to Covenant and his struggle with his condition - his decision to forsake life befitting a human being in the face of a life circumstance he couldn't over-come. His own, private ritual of desecration, as it were.

Vraith wrote: And yea, DW, on K's krill plan. Mastery of the 6th allows it. But he didn't foresee TC/White Gold, which transcends his rules and lore.

This is one thing in the 1st chronicles that always puzzled me. Amok tells TC that Kevin knew of the white gold and "yearned for it in vain." This seems strange to me, given that TC and his ring were brought to the land initially by means of the Staff of Law. The Lords eventually figured out how to use it to summon him to the land. So what I wonder is ... did Kevin know how to summon TC and the white gold? If not, why not? After all, Elena and Co. figured out how to do it, though it took forty years, and they had but a fraction of Kevin's knowledge. Mhoram was able to do it without the staff in TPTP. And if Kevin did know how, why didn't he do it?

Running Amok wrote:

Vraith wrote: And yea, DW, on K's krill plan. Mastery of the 6th allows it. But he didn't foresee TC/White Gold, which transcends his rules and lore.

This is one thing in the 1st chronicles that always puzzled me. Amok tells TC that Kevin knew of the white gold and "yearned for it in vain." This seems strange to me, given that TC and his ring were brought to the land initially by means of the Staff of Law. The Lords eventually figured out how to use it to summon him to the land. So what I wonder is ... did Kevin know how to summon TC and the white gold? If not, why not? After all, Elena and Co. figured out how to do it, though it took forty years, and they had but a fraction of Kevin's knowledge. Mhoram was able to do it without the staff in TPTP. And if Kevin did know how, why didn't he do it?

I will take a shot at this.

Consider how the passage of time in TC's "real" world corresponds to the passage of time in the Land. Between the First and Second Chrons, ten years pass in the "real" world and over three millenia pass in the Land. Let us assume that this is a fairly consistent ratio.

We know that in the Land at least 1,000 years passed after Kevin and Foul enacted Desecration before the events of LFB occurred. This would imply that in Kevin's time, TC was at least three years younger, probably more. TC had not contracted leprosy and subsequently lost Joan and Roger, had not written his (hollow) best-seller, had not had any of the formative experiences that forged him into White Gold.

If Kevin had attempted a Summonsing...he would not have brought TC to the Land or would have summoned someone callow and unready...much as Atiaran summoned Hile Troy. That did not turn out so well, did it? Had it not been for Mhoram and Caerroil Wildwood, Troy would have been an unambergrised disaster for the Land.

Running Amok wrote: This is one thing in the 1st chronicles that always puzzled me. Amok tells TC that Kevin knew of the white gold and "yearned for it in vain." This seems strange to me, given that TC and his ring were brought to the land initially by means of the Staff of Law. The Lords eventually figured out how to use it to summon him to the land. So what I wonder is ... did Kevin know how to summon TC and the white gold? If not, why not? After all, Elena and Co. figured out how to do it, though it took forty years, and they had but a fraction of Kevin's knowledge. Mhoram was able to do it without the staff in TPTP. And if Kevin did know how, why didn't he do it?

I think the key here is that he yearned for White Goldand not for a White Gold Wielder meaning he wanted the power, not the new player.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:

Running Amok wrote: This is one thing in the 1st chronicles that always puzzled me. Amok tells TC that Kevin knew of the white gold and "yearned for it in vain." This seems strange to me, given that TC and his ring were brought to the land initially by means of the Staff of Law. The Lords eventually figured out how to use it to summon him to the land. So what I wonder is ... did Kevin know how to summon TC and the white gold? If not, why not? After all, Elena and Co. figured out how to do it, though it took forty years, and they had but a fraction of Kevin's knowledge. Mhoram was able to do it without the staff in TPTP. And if Kevin did know how, why didn't he do it?

I think the key here is that he yearned for White Goldand not for a White Gold Wielder meaning he wanted the power, not the new player.

Or I Will Sell My Soul For Guilt - A novel by Thomas Covenant

shadowbinding shoe wrote:

Running Amok wrote: This is one thing in the 1st chronicles that always puzzled me. Amok tells TC that Kevin knew of the white gold and "yearned for it in vain." This seems strange to me, given that TC and his ring were brought to the land initially by means of the Staff of Law. The Lords eventually figured out how to use it to summon him to the land. So what I wonder is ... did Kevin know how to summon TC and the white gold? If not, why not? After all, Elena and Co. figured out how to do it, though it took forty years, and they had but a fraction of Kevin's knowledge. Mhoram was able to do it without the staff in TPTP. And if Kevin did know how, why didn't he do it?

I think the key here is that he yearned for White Goldand not for a White Gold Wielder meaning he wanted the power, not the new player.

That's a pretty nifty thought there on Kevin's thoughts, especially combined with how important rightful ownership is...though of course we can never know unless it becomes relevant somehow in the LC's and SRD tells us.

Also, we already know that the Old Lords, although mighty, were not all-encompassing in Lore. [the mind-sharing of the new Lords, for instance].
The Staff/earthpower was usable to summon...but where did the knowledge of the "spell"/"method"/"procedure" come from?

Vraith wrote:The Staff/earthpower was usable to summon...but where did the knowledge of the "spell"/"method"/"procedure" come from?

The first being known to attempt a Summonsing was Drool, who held the Staff and was tutored by Foul. It is not clear that anyone in the Land knew such was possible (or that there was another reality from which Summon people) prior to that. Once that knowledge was extant, it naturally follows that someone would attempt to do it again.

Atiaran was the next to try, wanting to get TC back...probably a desire that was at odds with her Oath of Peace. She had not attained even Lordship, was only a student at the Loresraat. She acted out of internal extremity, paid the price of her inexperience, and (as I observed upthread) would have damned the Land by her actions if it had not been for Mhoram, Wildwood, and the storycrafting of SRD.

Elena was High Lord by choice of the Council, held the Staff, and still needed the combined power of the rest of the Lords to bring Covenant to the Land for a second time. How the third Summonsing was accomplished by Foamfollower and Triock with no staff (although the real Staff still existed) and scant knowledge of Lore...I do not recall what made this possible.

Since then, the Summonsings of the 2nd and Last Chronicles have been performed by Foul or those who are under his influence.

In short...the knowledge of Summonsing all seems to trace back to Foul. Implications? Discuss.

I think Foamfollower and Triock used the lianior(?) rod that Mhoram gave Triock at the end of TIW when they summoned TC. Didn't it take them 3 days? (Totally from memory).

Savor Dam wrote:...the knowledge of Summonsing all seems to trace back to Foul. Implications?

What if it was Kevin that summoned Covenant to the Land, (TPTP). Lord Foul used Drool to do it the first time, maybe Kevin used Elena. Foul was still in control of the Illearth Stone but with a little imagination Kevin could have had help from the what power was still in the Colossus.

Trell might also have been attempting to summon Covenant through enactment, radhamearl ritual, and of course, desicration.

Savor Dam wrote:

Vraith wrote:The Staff/earthpower was usable to summon...but where did the knowledge of the "spell"/"method"/"procedure" come from?

The first being known to attempt a Summonsing was Drool, who held the Staff and was tutored by Foul. [[quoter snippage]..
In short...the knowledge of Summonsing all seems to trace back to Foul. Implications? Discuss.

Yea, it was one of those questions...not rhetorical exactly, required a spooky Dum, dum DUUUUMM.
[note to code-ie folk, we need a "soundtrack indicates dramatic info/turning point" emoticon].

Point was...it very closely resembles the "breaking of Law" necessities that come later. Yes, they are "bad" in one way. They also enable actions by the "good" guys.

In short....this probably should go in the predictions thread, cuz I do predict it, have for a while...
The phrase "Good cannot be accomplished by evil means" will turn out to be a pile of crap, like most conventional/common sense claptrap...and for many of the same reasons. [intentions the primary one].
Case in point/on topic:::Amok learns that his "summoning" was NOT achieved "by the rules"...yet he ALSO learns that the circumstances of the world exceed the parameters of his rules. So he bends/stretches/adapts [though cuz he is a construct not a being he can't simply choose to shatter them, so has limited actions available]

1) I'm not sure Kevin believed in other worlds. As near as I can tell, the first indication that there are inhabitants of other worlds is when Covenant came along and told them about it. To Kevin, white gold would have been this ultra rare needle hidden somewhere withing the entirety of his world. He did not know where it was at, his Lore (based on Law) probably could not locate it. By the time he would have found, statistically speaking, Foul would have desecrated the world thousands of times.

2) He could also believe that it was located somewhere within this nebulous Arch of Time. Aside from the problems of accessing this Arch, taking white gold out of it might have caused it to collapse.

3) Even if he suspected life on another world with white gold, he might have suspected it lay beyond the Arch. Reaching beyond that to draw some champion in could have destroyed the world. Instead of destroying the world, he decided to just temporarily wound it.

It was not until Covenant came along that those who were Lore-wise would have known that his comings and goings would not destroy the Arch.

I'd agree that Foul was the source for the Summoning Ritual except that the wording of the summoning in the First Chronicles don't sound spiteful enough. They don't fit Foul's personality. Compare them to the two summonings in the later Chronilcles: getting a group of followers mutilate their hands in a bonefire or the mass murder/lightning storm/gunfire.

So either Foul managed to create a ritual that goes against his basic nature to tempt the Lords into repeating it or he was just teaching Drool a ritual someone else created. When we remember that the tool (the Staff of Law) represented the lore of the Old Lords I think it's likely Kevin and his brethren created it. Foul like even wanted them to use it and being a member of the council could push them in the right direction.