The Chrons in Translation.

A place to discuss the books in the FC and SC. *Please Note* No LC spoilers allowed in this forum. Do so in the forum below.

Moderators: Orlion, kevinswatch

User avatar
Frostheart Grueburn
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1827
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:47 pm
Location: Gianthome

Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

No prob, I'm interested in language-related discussions. And I had a night's sleep after the post. :lol:

Now here are three different translations of the same set of verses.

John Martin "MINSTREL" Crawford

In the fire the smith had laid it,
Laid it in his smelting furnace.
Ilmarinen starts the bellows,
Gives three motions of the handle,
And the iron flows in streamlets
From the forge of the magician,
Soon becomes like baker's leaven, (argh blargh "almost" literal translation does not work)
Soft as dough for bread of barley.
Then out-screamed the metal, Iron:
'Wondrous blacksmith, Ilmarinen,
Take, O take me from thy furnace,
From this fire and cruel torture.'

"Ilmarinen thus made answer:
'I will take thee from my furnace,
'Thou art but a little frightened,
Thou shalt be a mighty power,
Thou shalt slay the best of heroes,
Thou shalt wound thy dearest brother.'
"Straightway Iron made this promise,
Vowed and swore in strongest accents,
By the furnace, by the anvil,
By the tongs, and by the hammer,
These the words he vowed and uttered:
'Many trees that I shall injure,
Shall devour the hearts of mountains,
Shall not slay my nearest kindred,
Shall not kill the best of heroes,
Shall not wound my dearest brother;
---

Pros: manages a bit of rhythm here and there, as in
"Straightway Iron made this promise,
Vowed and swore in strongest accents,
By the furnace, by the anvil,
By the tongs, and by the hammer,


Cons:
-Straaange and sometimes very awkward, ludicrous translations (like calling Ilmarinen "magician" and Väinämöinen "a court bard". Ilmarinen is a smith-god.)
-Alliteration destroyed, doesn't even attempt to compensate this with, say, end-rhyming

W. F. Kirby

Then he cast it in the furnace,
And he laid it on the anvil,
Blew a blast, and then a second,
And he blew again a third time,
Till the Iron was fully softened,
And the ore completely melted,
Like to wheaten dough in softness,
Soft as dough for ryebread kneaded,
In the furnace of the smithy,
By the bright flame's softening power.
"Then exclaimed the Iron unhappy,
'O thou smith, O Ilmarinen,
Take me quickly from this furnace,
From the red flames that torment me.'
"Said the smith, said Ilmarinen,
'If I take you from the furnace,
Perhaps you might become outrageous,
And commit some furious action.
Perhaps you might attack your brother,
And your mother's child might injure.'
"Therefore swore the Iron unhappy,
By the oaths of all most solemn,
By the forge and by the anvil,
By the hammer and the mallet,
And it said the words which follow,
And expressed itself in this wise:
'Give me trees that I can bite them,
Give me stones that I may break them,
I will not assault my brother,
Nor my mother's child will injure.

-Some attempts (or accidental) at alliteration here and there
-Some stanzas break the 8-syllable rhythm
-Less "crack" translations

Keith Bosley

The smith thrust it in the fire
down into his forge pushed it.
He puffed once, puffed twice
Puffed a third time too:
Iron as gruel
lolls, as dross it foams;
It stretched as wheat paste
As dough of rye flour
In the smith's great fires
In the power of naked flame.
At that poor iron cried out:
"Smith Ilmarinen!
Ah, take me away from here
out of the pain of red fire!"
The smith Ilmarinen said;
"If I take you from the fire
perhaps you will grow dreadful
and fly quite into a rage
and even carve your brother
chop your mother's child."
Thereupon poor iron swore--
swore a solemn oath
on the forge, on the anvil
on the hammer, the mallets;
it says with this word
it spoke with this speech:
"There is wood for me to bite
a rock's heart for me to eat
so I'll not carve my brother
chop my mother's child.

...
I really hate this one. No rhythm. No rhyming. Altogether too simplistic a vocabulary.

Amazon.com contains other translations, but the quality's a question mark.
Oh...I may have one yet different English version, which I got for the illustrations. No idea where it lurks, however. None of the above capture the original meter or the complexity of the language.

Afraid I don't have time for a more comprehensive translation analysis right now.

* * *

As for translating fantasy to different cultural mind-sets... Well, I've discussed this within other contexts on this very board, but the Finnish mentality is serious, broody, melancholic, and prone to black humor. This affects everything from mythology to literature to music (one of the most significant producers and exporters of metal in Europe). Fantasy literature's very popular here, and I can tell people wouldn't withstand Briny the Pirates. Grant Foamy a thoughtful, solemn name, and you're on the right track. The Giantish naming already follows the Finnish compound word structure (everything gets lumped together into looong queues of öäåöäöäöååå and other gibberish), so it shouldn't pose that huge a problem. Unless the translator's an incompetent berk. :P
User avatar
peter
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 12204
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:08 am
Location: Another time. Another place.
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 10 times

Post by peter »

Great post Frostheart and much appreciated. Interesting - the first two versions both use a trochaic tetrameter (the 8 syllable rythem with the stress on the first syllable of each of the four (two syllable) feet. This meter appears to me to be parralelled in the lines of your finnish verse below - but twice in each line with a break (or cesura) in the middle. Now I dont know if finnish verse uses stressed and unstressed syllables in the formation of meter (as opposed to alliteration and syllable count) but it seems to me that this might be what the translators are trying to capture here.

(A simple trochaic pentameter would be "Peter, Peter, Pumpkin eater" which would 'scan' as follows:- Pe/ter,/ Pe/ter,/ Pump/kin /ea/ter - ie four feet, each of two syllable's (eg Pe/ter is one foot with two syllables) with the stress placed on the first sylable of the two syllable foot (ie 'Pe' in this case)[Sorry if you are familiar with this stuff already Frostheart but I have to assume not or what I'm saying will make no sense.]

This meter, the trochaic tetrameter, is one with which the english language speaker is very familiar in poetry and hence its use in the translations 1 and 2 would render the end result as something that was easy for the english ear to acommodate (perhaps easier than the alliterative style of the original). The third almost abandons meter altogether and goes for a 'free-verse' style - an approach that can only be justified if i) the word translation is much better kept that way and ii) the 'euphony' (ie the richness of the collective word sound) is much greater. I'm going to go back and read all three again just to feel how they 'sound. I'll come back and tell you if as an english language speaker one of the versions stands out as superior to the others.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
User avatar
Vraith
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 10623
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: everywhere, all the time
Been thanked: 3 times

Post by Vraith »

peter wrote: This meter, the trochaic tetrameter, is one with which the english language speaker is very familiar in poetry and hence its use in the translations 1 and 2 would render the end result as something that was easy for the english ear to acommodate (perhaps easier than the alliterative style of the original).
I think the language could be heightened/more dynamic in all the versions [but not stupidly heightened, like "O Wondrous"]

...but the thing you say here is true, and I would probably use that meter in translation, but my main [somewhat related to your "accomodation"] reason: think...
Bu-bble, Bu-bble, Toil and Trou-ble.
or the slight variation...
Ti-ger, Ti-ger, Bur-ning Bright
[heh...both of which have alliteration as well, by chance]

Magic, power, incantation, the mystical, have a long and strong tradition of following that meter.
[I have a theory on why that is so, but no need to drag things too far off-topic]
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
User avatar
peter
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 12204
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:08 am
Location: Another time. Another place.
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 10 times

Post by peter »

:lol: There was no 'off topic' in this one Vraith - and I would very much like to hear that theory! (nb I think where the thread is couldn't be more interesting if it tried - I had never heard of the Kalevala before and have learned some *very* pertinant new stuff as a result of it! Anyway - back to that reading I was going to do).

Of the first two translations, I find myself leaning toward the second though I believe the first actually starts better. It seems however that the idea of the iron's saying "Look - I'm going to cut down tree's that will be used to fire forges that will smelt the metal's out of the hearts of mountains. I'll not be turned against kindred, heroes or brothers!" is lost or at least much reduced in force in the second two translations. What I think the third translation is aiming at is not to even attempt to achieve the impossible in terms of reproduction of rhyme, metre, alliteration etc. Instead it says "Here is a story. Take it as it is." No attempt is made to pull the prose into a poetry within which it cannot fit and in some ways this is commendable but I agree even the prose is flat and lifeless and so this one has to go. In summary I think in these translations Frostheart, yes - I see something majestic struggling to show itself but failing somehow to achieve it's potential (whether by lack of skill of the translators or failings of the recieving language I could not say).
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Post Reply

Return to “The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant”