Tony Blair:Political Lackey or Political Genius?

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Skyweir
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Post by Skyweir »

Cov jr - I would be surprised if there is not widespread support for a more moderate regime following the deposing of Hussein ... once the US have cleaned out all opposition.

The Iraqi people have suffered under this rogue regime .. and it will not be inconceivable that once Hussein and his government is ousted that the Iraqi population will embrace change .. and those who dont will undoubtedly be educated as to the evils of the Hussein regime and the good that change will bring to their lives.

As for Blair's 50+ page intelligence report claiming Suddam Hussein had continued to produce chemical and biological weapons and could deploy them within 45 minutes has been criticised as being 'unpersuasive'. I think if you were sold on that issue prior to Blair's pronouncement then it would strengthen your resolve .. but if you were skeptical its unlikely to alter your postion .. as in Jaques Chirac's assessment ..
there is still no proof, only indications
The New Zealand Prime Minister said ..
I dont think the dossier will persuade people who weren't persuaded that there should be unilateral armed intervention'
We are all agreed that Hussein's deposal is beneficial to the Iraqi, regional and Global communities. We just dont agree on the method. However with or without a UN lead campaign .. the US are geared up for War.

The US is currently negotiating and preparing the training of approximately 10,000 Shi'ite, Sunni muslims and ethnic Kurd organisations and defectors from Iraq .. who are being prepared to aid the US in the upcoming attack.

I also do not dispute the US' good intentions .. though I can not support US unilateral action .. and fair go .. they are attempting to gain UN approval

No one can argue that the US do not possess a mandate to pursue Al Quaida .. but they do not possess a mandate for unilateral action beyond that.

Like Cov jr says
That is why we must never have one nation who police the globe - who would regulate them
..

indeed who will regulate them??

And as far as terrorists are concerned .. as I have said many times there is a very fine line between 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' .. many who may be labelled 'terrorist' may well claim to be 'freedom fighters' - - fighting for their right of survival .. for their homes and families and their beliefs.

And there are some outright absolutely no question .. 'terrorists' ..

The Russians and Chinese internal problems with 'muslim minorities and ethnic divisions' in this political climate of anti-terrorism .. will get the green light from the US to deal with their internal issues .. in what ever manner they see fit .. likely under the labelled/justification of .. internal terrorists.

I suspect the US will agree to turn a blind eye to their methods .. to gain their (Russian Chinese) support in accessing a UN Security Council Resolution in support of US lead campaign against Iraq.

Yes .. since the Bush declaration of a War on Terrorism .. an inordinate amount of world leaders have been asigning the term 'terrorist' to a wide range of groups. Some we would probably have no arguement with .. but others we might reasonably question.

And it may not only be that this label alone is used to justify further aggression .. but also nation states who promulgate anti-US sentiment may come under US scrutiny ... if Bush is true to his words ..
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Post by Earthblood »

Pres. Bush said on Thurs, Sept 26:

[quote]The [Iraqi] regime has long-standing and continuing ties to terrorist organizations. And there are al Qaeda terrorists inside Iraq. The regime is seeking a nuclear bomb, and with fissile material, could build one within a year. Iraq has already used weapons of mass death against -- against other countries and against her own citizens. The Iraqi regime practices the rape of women as a method of intimidation; and the torture of dissenters and their children.

This is Bush's tie & justification for attacking Iraq.

Hussien needs to go. Hopefully the innocents are spared in what is shaping up to be an ugly campaign(sp?)
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Post by Skyweir »

Forgive my skepticism .. this smacks of an 11th hour justification .. and it is the first time we have heard of any such connection made public!

And surprisingly I didnt find any mention of Al Quaida or OBL mentioned in Blairs intelligence report given in British Parliament to persuade and justify UK involvement .. and you'd think that it would have definitely been 'a plus' .. to mention intelligence of that nature.

I am a little surprised to say the least .. and wonder why this kind of information has been left till this point to come forth ..
Last edited by Skyweir on Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Earthblood »

Like I said before, ever wonder where the Bush family got its money?

Ever wonder why Hussein wasn't taken out when Bush Sr. was Pres?

I am not trying to be too cynical, but there have got to be other forces at work in this whole affair than simply a connection to Al Quida & Hussein being a murderer of his own peoples.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Wow, Sky! You really use the freedom of speech against me a lot...stop, cant you get a better argument?

Don Rumsfeld is THE man! Dont go smacking him in the face, Sky, until youve read his resume and how much HE has done for OUR country.


How CANT you understand clearly what a terrorist is, Earthy?? A terrorist is anyone, not just part of Al Quida, that targets America or its allies(Russia, Europe, Israel..etc) in a non-warfare way so to speak. Also, anyone whos a big enough coward to execute an operartion like 9/11. Then theres Hamas, another coward who goes around suicide bombing and supporting suicide bombing in major Israeli cities. OMG! These cowards really tick me off!!!!

Earthy, your comments about the American/British Gulf War and Bush Sr. are totally wrong. The GF's goals werent to take out Hussein, they were to get the Iraqis out of Kuwait, and they suceeded and seriously decreased Saddam's once mighty "4th biggest in the world" army to a much smaller one.

I admire Tony Blair for his leadership on the European and International stage, and his guts to SUPPORT America in its time of need; unlike other Europeans $cough France$...
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Post by Earthblood »

With all respect your Lordship - its not my knowing what terrorists are. I agree with you! Any SOB that attacks America (including allies) in an undeclared war to inflict as much damage & cause as much chaos(sp?) as possible is a terrorist in my book. Apparently I'm not making myself clear to you. I'M BEHIND BUSH & THE US ACTIONS WE ARE UNDERTAKING!
If I was eligible, I would sign up today to go fight the bastards.

What I'm concerned about is other little dictators in the world taking the 'terrorist' label & using it to wreak there own kind of havoc on groups they happen to oppose or disagree with.

As for the Gulf war, yes, we were there to liberate Kuwait. But why were/are we so concerned about Kuwait? This is not a democratic state is it? It's a state that supplies a large portion of the crude oil we use in the US. So, if we were there to protect our oil supply (which I feel is what we were & should have been doing), why didn't we see that Hussein was going to be a threat down the road? I know hindsight is 20/20, but our intelligence community should have known & we should have taken Hussien out then.

I think Bush Jr is doing a yoeman's job given the circumstances that were thrust upon him.

I agree with you about Blair, he has been at America's side from the start of this . He takes some heat at home too, but he's standing tall with his allies.

In the end, this is why we love America, isn't it? We can both back our country, yet have differing opinions on what we see.

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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Kuwait not only supplies the US's oil, but its inhabitants were being slaughtered and tortured by the Hussein regime's troops. Also, if it remained in Iraqi hands, it would serve as a stepping stone to Saudi Arabia. W/Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and its own large amount of oil, it would have a large portion of the Middle East's oil.
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Post by Skyweir »

It is clear that this is becoming a highly sensitive issue to you HLM .. and I dont want to take this discussion down the .. 'lets get personal' road .. where it would seem you want to take it.
Wow, Sky! You really use the freedom of speech against me a lot...stop, cant you get a better argument?
I was of the opinion that I had laid together a rather diverse arguement on this topic page .. imo .. way beyond the 'freedom of speech' issue .. which I only mentioned twice .. including the once defending another's posters right to express their pov :roll: .. but if you fail to acknowledge that .. I am disappointed.
Don Rumsfeld is THE man! Dont go smacking him in the face, Sky, until youve read his resume and how much HE has done for OUR country.
this comment really surprised me .. and I went in search of where I made a comment that you may have interpreted as my 'smacking Rumsfeld in the face'. Rumsfeld is not 'THE MAN' to me .. though I am heartened you think he is.
OMG! These cowards really tick me off!!!!
that is very clear!!

.. but where you err is in assuming that you are the only one that thinks that way. I dont think anyone has said they love terrorists or their actions .. or even support the actions of terrorists

... I thought I had made my stance clear .. I believe justice should be answered absolutely!! .. and as for Hussein .. I think he is an evil roache .. and his being deposed will do Iraq and its people a great service ..

try not to mix up the concerns here .. the critical issue to me .. was regarding a unilateral action in Iraq as opposed to a UN lead campaign .. or indeed as projected for any future nation targetted in this rhetorical 'War on Terrorism'.
I admire Tony Blair for his leadership on the European and International stage, and his guts to SUPPORT America in its time of need; unlike other Europeans $cough France$...
.. and now also Germany :roll: ..

but in my most humble opinion .. and as evidenced from your strong reaction alone to comments you dont agree with ..I wonder how much courage it takes to support the US .. 'in its time of need' ..

.. many nations are indeed doing this .. my own included and have pledged unconditional support since 9/11 .. as realised in our small but dedicated presence in Afghanistan

.. many other nations are feeling pressure to fall in suit ..

the ones that arent .. they possess courage too imo!!! .. as much if not more ..

If you took some time to appreciate why there are in fact nations unwilling to support the US carte blanch .. you may understand there are also other [some I thought were identified here] concerns out there .. than just kicking Iraqi arse .. which you are clearly eager to do :wink:

I have no desire to denegrate your allegiance to your country .. I admire your national pride Mhoram .. You may be aware that many of the nations you criticise have extended the US its sympathy and sense of solidarity as evidenced in a variety of ways .. even though not militarily .. on this particular occassion.

The wheels are already in motion .. and come what may .. when it all goes down .. I will be with you .. praying for the safe return of our troops .. and hoping above all that they are successful.

That doesnt mean .. I dont have questions and concerns .. cos I do.
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Post by CovenantJr »

Quite. I think we all agree that Saddam should go, and that terrorism is, indeed, terrible. But the point is, some of us have doubts about the manner in which the situation should be handled. Clearly, some world leaders share our doubts, and it takes a great deal of courage for them to stand up for their opinions, and withhold military action in such highly emotionally-charged circumstances.
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Post by Skyweir »

ditto

.. looks like on the eve of the US/Allied attack on Iraq that the debate is over .. like it or lump it .. it would seem .. :(
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Iraq 'accepts' the UN sanction!!!

Whats gonna happen next? Yankees not win AL Pennant?? Oh, wait. Angels already did that!!
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Post by Guardian »

Oh, god. A board with Hockey, Covenant, AND Politics? I am so stoked...

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Post by Skyweir »

a member who posts on the hockey Covenant and politics thread!!

I'm so stoked!! :wink: :wink: :P

whooo hooo!!.. that might mean more really cool political discussions!! :wink: :P

a very hearty welcome Guardian .. be welcome and true valued member!!! and post heartily!!! :mrgreen:
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Post by kaseryn »

Well well, a topic close to my heart.. at least in its original phrasing :) A view then from a Brit.. myself, is that the Rt Hon Tony Blair spends far too much time sniffing Bush' crotch, and not enough bothering to explore much less represent the feeling at home. I can't possibly tell you how sick to the back teeth I am of hearing about the so called 'special relationship'. What does that mean to me, a British voter ??? All I see is, as some have said, is Blair seeming to fawn around Bush as though simple proximity to the most powerful nations leader were an aphrodisiac. I don't know how many Brits or Americans here will have seen it.. but not too long after 9/11 Question Time [a very good political debate prog here] was hosted in NY as a one off. It was an eye-opener for me. A number of the young American participants voiced exactly the same doubts about Blairs motives as I had myself.. and concerns over the vagueness of language being used to justify miltary action.. bullying of the UN etc. I was incredibly heartened to see an American viewpoint more willing to question than that represented in the news here. I'm digressing... Blair.. I just can't understand this tendency of British PM's to follow America's lead in all things.. I don't think the relationship has had any kind of balance since perhaps Thatchers time. I have nothing against American people.. that should be a given. What i do however resent is my country seeming to suborn its native interests to anothers. Bad enough in itself.. but how far do you think American politics takes consideration of our [UK] interests? Look for instance at the recent WTO/Steel row.. or the banana row with the West Indies. Of course America is going to look after its own agenda. Thats neccessary.. expected.. but so should we be. It isn;t for instance.. in America's interests for the UK to be part of a more integrated EU. As a solid trading block this would swing economic power more in our favour than at current. But politically.. philisophically etc.. i feel much more in kin with Europe than the USA. And economically it makes sense. The CBI has been shouting at the govt for years to join the Euro.. gah.. too much to be said here... this is a chat topic more than post.. but anyway.. yes i think Blairs too much of a lapdog :)
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Post by danlo »

My point xactly kaseryn!!! If he's so loyal let him b the 1st 2 enter Baghdad armed!
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Post by Guest »

heh...too bad I missed this debate.

Personally, I would have preferred for us to keep targeting and destroying these terrorist training camps all over the world and freeze bank accounts to keep these creeps on the run rather than get distracted over some petty dictatorship that was never much of a credible threat to the US.

Instead, here we are stuck in Iraq wasting American time, money, international credibility, and most importantly, the lives of our soldiers to play policeman and pass out unemployment checks. :-x
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

I like Blair. I like Bush. Blair is 'sniffing' Dubya's crotch because he sees the strategic relationship the UK can forge with America, and breach the so-called 'Atlantic Divide' or whatever it's called.
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Post by Guest »

Yup, I think Blair probably sees the UK's interests are more closely aligned with the US than with the continental countries of the EU.
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