Kevin's Watch

There were a couple of extremely nice guys in my life. One was in high school. He would come to my house and pick me up and take me along with him and his other guy friends. He would make me laugh so hard I'd be screaming for mercy and hitting him. He would let me cry on his shoulder about what a jerk my current boyfriend was. He worked up enough nerve eventually to ask me out and I told him no, and he immediately reassured me that it was just because he wanted to hang out with me. What an idiot I was!! I would "go out" with these louts who didn't actually care about me at all. I wanted the rock stars, the bad boys. And that's what I got, and everything that went along with it.

There was another one in college and after. Again, he would take me places and we would do great stuff together and I was so comfortable with him. Later, when I had moved away, he wrote me a letter in which he said that he wished he knew I had ended a longtime relationship because he would have "fallen in love with you instantly". He was so gentlemanly I never suspected; but I wasn't attracted to gentlemanly at that point because I was still an idiot.

God was good to me and I ended up marrying a nice guy in the end. A few dates in I remember thinking how bored I was: but I had read in a book that boredom was a good sign because it meant there was no danger, and I made the choice to stick with the relationship, and I am SO GLAD I DID. (And life has NOT been boring, trust me!!! We live in Africa, remember?)

So yes, the nice guys are all around. But they are not flashy, or dangerous, or sexy on the surface. They are your friend. Take another look at that guy who is your friend. He may be the One!!!!

I don't recognise any of these nice guys you're all talking about. Perhaps they weren't around in the 60s, or I wasn't the kind of girl they latched on to. Or perhaps I wasn't single long enough to experience this kind of treatment - I was married 4 months before my 21st birthday. I had many friends who were boys though, many lads who I considered very dear friends. Such was the chap I wrote about earlier. He was kind, considerate, warm, not awfully good looking but had lovely long blond hair. But he didn't have a motive other than friendship, which seems to be what most of your "nice guys" have, and certainly the guy who wrote the original quoted piece. Why does everyone have to be motivated by the hope of "getting laid"?

My nice guy 40 years on is, I think, deluded. He had nurtured a 40 year old memory until it became what it never was. There was a moment there that could have developed into something, but it didn't, and when he turned up unexpectedly at my wedding he certainly didn't look as if he was suffering from a broken heart!!

The chap who wrote the original piece has a big problem, and it's a problem widely endemic today. He thinks that it's someone else's fault when actually it's his own fault. There has to be someone to blame for his failure. He's a whiner, and I can't stand whiners.

I do hope that there are still genuine nice guys out there, looking for love, commitment, even just friendship.

Being an asshole does not work and I do not recommend it. But what it does do, the reason it appears to work is that it prevents you from kissing ass and acting like the world revolves around the female. It means that you are at least capable of actively questioning the worth of the female, so she is forced to earn her own way. In other words she is treated as though she is morally on par with all other human life on planet earth, for whom life is ordinarily a challenge.

As for me, I'm happily married and that was never my style to begin with, in fact I tended to the opposite direction. Until I grew up, developed some confidence, stopped kissing ass, and quit whining all the time about how unfair life is. And if I've learned anything about women, it's that they do not respond to need with anything other than contempt and possibly pity if you're lucky. If you "need" a woman emotionally, if you cannot stand on your own as a man without her, she will despise you. As she should.

Think about it from the female point of view. Wouldn't you be selling yourself short if you didn't aspire to a mate that had to be won over rather than somebody that acts like your presence is a continual gift? Wouldn't that become quite annoying in fact, especially as you gradually uncovered its insincerity, came to see it as camouflage for a romantic aspiration marked only by timidity?

It's been true forever, and it will remain true: timid heart never won fair lady.

Murrin wrote:

Quote:
Harbinger wrote:

*Note to guys who are frustrated "just friends." If you ain't hittin' it, you need to be quittin' it.

Are you saying that sex is the only reason to be friends with a woman?

Okay, I get that if the guy in question is only being friends in expectation of sex, he needs to quit and grow the fuck up, but I'm hoping you didn't mean that as a general statement.

I think the operative word in the statement is "frustrated."

deer of the dawn wrote:...A few dates in I remember thinking how bored I was: but I had read in a book that boredom was a good sign because it meant there was no danger, and I made the choice to stick with the relationship, and I am SO GLAD I DID.

Hahah! I love that line!!
Also, I think you are awesome.

Io wrote:My nice guy 40 years on is, I think, deluded. He had nurtured a 40 year old memory until it became what it never was.

That really sounds like you've gotten to one of the core issues...
So often we humans don't really love the humans we purport to "be in love with"... we love the image of them that we see, or the fictional fantasy of what we think they can be.

Do ya think maybe that's the reason marriage gets such a bad rap some days? ...Then we have to deal with the actual person, not just the 'attractive' face they put on for the outside world.



In college, I became best friends with... I really didn't ever think of him as merely a "nice guy" ...so I will call him a "deeply good man."
The story I told myself was, "Wow, weird.. I have a best friend who's a guy!
He's so fascinating, with none of the distraction of a crush!"

Awhile later, I sought counsel from a wise female friend.
She asked me if I liked him, and I answered "No!" a little too quickly.
Later in the conversation, she asked me, "So, if you knew whether he liked you or not, would that have changed your answer?" (except with more subtlety, I think!)

I think we humans are really dense and blind, and I needed a friend's (less selfish, less self-interested) eyes to properly "take another look at that guy who is my friend."

Syl wrote:One day I did myself and everyone else a favor and said, "I don't give a fuck." And I did say it, out loud, to no one in particular. More importantly, I meant it. I stopped caring about rejection. Stopped caring about what I thought I had to do to get laid and only worried about what I wanted to do. If I wanted to be friends with a girl, we'd be friends (and having been on the other side of that fence, I can say it isn't fun). If I wanted more, I'd put it out there, in pretty obvious terms (though not blatantly. I mean, there is such a thing as decency).

I wish I could say that this is a foolproof strategy. All I know is, weeks later I was dating a smoking hot girl I met in a club. Several months later, we were married. Years later we have two kids. *shrug*

That.

I also agree pretty much with what Don Exnihilote wrote.

This whole "Nice Guy" and "friendzone" bs just has such a sense of entitlement to it. Relationships aren't about meeting certain specific and objective criteria. They're about a unique and subjective connection between two individuals. Just because you do and say all the right things, doesn't mean you deserve anything. You can't just pump respect tokens into the liberated woman machine and expect it to start dispensing pussy.

To be clear, there does exist a friendzone, where one person has feelings for a friend and they are not mutual. It's not gender specific, and it's a painful place to be for a while. But get over it. You have a friend. How could you possibly whine about having a friend? Keep doing all those nice caring and respectful, friendly things you do for them, because you totally do them because you want to make your friend feel good, not out of some hope for sexual reciprocity, right? Good. Then chuck them into the occasional harmless masturbatory fantasy and get on with life.

cambo - I have many friends. most people do. what we crave, what we desire, what we need is intimacy.

no idea why anyone continues after someone who returns no interest. stop wasting time and move on. plenty of women/men out there.

Love that Vader. Stealing it for fb, where you'll soon see it

I think Null has a point. Why do "nice guys" pursue women who have no interest in them? It's easy to say that it's because the women are too naive or what have you to be interested in nice guys, but... I think it probably has a lot more to do with "nice guys" not knowing what interest is.

I said earlier that, as a guy, I tend to think a lot of things are interest, but in fact, it's really not. And a few guys I've met had it worse than me. Some other guys I worked with at Circuit City and I had to explain to one of the seasonal sales guys that our waitress was not into him just because she was being nice, that it was part of her job to smile at him.

As a former "nice guy," I didn't have a lot of experience with girls. What few girlfriends I had came about kind of randomly, often just falling into my lap, and any kind of pursuit on my part was usually fruitless. If I understand women at all now, I certainly didn't when I was younger. So as I started to interact more with them socially... *sigh* I kind of thought that friendship and romance developed similarly. Sure, a lot of women may say that's the case, but they're not most women, and certainly not most women that frustrate the "nice guys." Unreasonable expectations and all that.

Linna Heartlistener wrote: That really sounds like you've gotten to one of the core issues...
So often we humans don't really love the humans we purport to "be in love with"... we love the image of them that we see, or the fictional fantasy of what we think they can be.

Isn't that one of the central issues of The Great Gatsby? That we love these images, these ideas, more than the reality?

Anyway, I'm just going to chime in on the OP: the whole "nice guy rant" thing isn't accurate, nor was it written by a "nice guy." As much as I hate the term "beta," (it's PUA jargon, and I hate pick-up artists, for the way they view and treat women), the basic idea of someone who is not assertive or confident is pretty accurate. These are guys who think that by acting "nice" they deserve to get the girl.

Unfortunately, they're presenting a false dichotomy: on one hand, assertive and aggressive assholes; on the other, submissive and unconfident "nice guys." These are the two types presented as "alphas" and "betas." My main problem isn't with these two classifications, but rather pretending that they're the only options.

In reality, it's perfectly possible to be a "nice guy" who is also assertive and confident enough to approach women and get dates. These are the guys that the original writer should be emulating; men who view women as people rather than objects, who treat everyone (men and women alike) with respect, and who don't feel they're owed anything for the years of meek submission they've put in.

Loyalty can (and should) be earned; attraction can not. If someone isn't attracted to you, then get over it and move on. Harboring a secret flame for months or years won't earn you brownie points, nobody's going to suddenly come to their senses and realize how great you are, they're not going to suddenly grow up and realize what's right in front of them, etc. Too bad, life's unfair, get over it.

Now, regarding the women you're crushing on, here's what you do: keep being their friend. Keep spending time with them. Keep offering support when needed. But be honest: you're friends. You're probably never going to be more than that, and that's OK, because being friends is awesome. Don't throw that away, just accept it and move on.

Never been a "nice guy" but I also never been an asshole either. I've always been straightforward to everyone. And I played guitar/bass which helped a lot to attract girls back then. Girls loved guitar players, but bass players got a chance as well coz who counts the strings anyway?

Nice boys don't play Rock'n'Roll. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPKw3yABEpk

Don Exnihilote wrote:Being an asshole does not work and I do not recommend it. But what it does do, the reason it appears to work is that it prevents you from kissing ass and acting like the world revolves around the female. It means that you are at least capable of actively questioning the worth of the female, so she is forced to earn her own way. In other words she is treated as though she is morally on par with all other human life on planet earth, for whom life is ordinarily a challenge.

As for me, I'm happily married and that was never my style to begin with, in fact I tended to the opposite direction. Until I grew up, developed some confidence, stopped kissing ass, and quit whining all the time about how unfair life is. And if I've learned anything about women, it's that they do not respond to need with anything other than contempt and possibly pity if you're lucky. If you "need" a woman emotionally, if you cannot stand on your own as a man without her, she will despise you. As she should.

Think about it from the female point of view. Wouldn't you be selling yourself short if you didn't aspire to a mate that had to be won over rather than somebody that acts like your presence is a continual gift? Wouldn't that become quite annoying in fact, especially as you gradually uncovered its insincerity, came to see it as camouflage for a romantic aspiration marked only by timidity?

It's been true forever, and it will remain true: timid heart never won fair lady.

Not sure how I feel about those remarks. On the one hand, it's nice to be "won over", on the other hand, too often what passes for "wooing" is deception and manipulation. Do men secretly resent the effort it takes? Because if they do, it's not going to last past the "winning" stage and therefore will engender disappointment and resentment later on, when the lady finds out that he was just being nice to get what he wanted.

As far as "questioning the worth"... I feel so worthless just reading that. Is that what love is about? Love is unconditional. Not that there's no common sense involved, but what worth are any of us? Love is valuing another person whether they rise or fall (and especially when they fall). If you can't love her when she looks like hell or says the wrong thing, find someone else.

There's a paradox. On the one hand, if the relationship is meant to be, it will happen; no one should have to kill themselves to MAKE it happen. On the other hand, I would cross heaven and earth for my husband. If that was what he wanted. But what he really wants, actually, is just someone to be there and to talk to. And so do I. (Oh, and there is "getting some" as part of it, too.)

Rigel wrote:

Linna Heartlistener wrote: That really sounds like you've gotten to one of the core issues...
So often we humans don't really love the humans we purport to "be in love with"... we love the image of them that we see, or the fictional fantasy of what we think they can be.

Isn't that one of the central issues of The Great Gatsby? That we love these images, these ideas, more than the reality?

Anyway, I'm just going to chime in on the OP: the whole "nice guy rant" thing isn't accurate, nor was it written by a "nice guy." As much as I hate the term "beta," (it's PUA jargon, and I hate pick-up artists, for the way they view and treat women), the basic idea of someone who is not assertive or confident is pretty accurate. These are guys who think that by acting "nice" they deserve to get the girl.

Unfortunately, they're presenting a false dichotomy: on one hand, assertive and aggressive assholes; on the other, submissive and unconfident "nice guys." These are the two types presented as "alphas" and "betas." My main problem isn't with these two classifications, but rather pretending that they're the only options.

In reality, it's perfectly possible to be a "nice guy" who is also assertive and confident enough to approach women and get dates. These are the guys that the original writer should be emulating; men who view women as people rather than objects, who treat everyone (men and women alike) with respect, and who don't feel they're owed anything for the years of meek submission they've put in.

Loyalty can (and should) be earned; attraction can not. If someone isn't attracted to you, then get over it and move on. Harboring a secret flame for months or years won't earn you brownie points, nobody's going to suddenly come to their senses and realize how great you are, they're not going to suddenly grow up and realize what's right in front of them, etc. Too bad, life's unfair, get over it.

Now, regarding the women you're crushing on, here's what you do: keep being their friend. Keep spending time with them. Keep offering support when needed. But be honest: you're friends. You're probably never going to be more than that, and that's OK, because being friends is awesome. Don't throw that away, just accept it and move on.

This is so strong I can't stand it. Thanks for articulating perfectly what I have been trying to convey for several posts now.

You have hit on the key issue in this subject: the treating people as psychic objects upon whom are projected powerful, even domineering archetypes that tower over the quivering "nice guy" rather than as simply people with their own insecurities and foibles.

deer of the dawn wrote:

Don Exnihilote wrote:Being an asshole does not work and I do not recommend it. But what it does do, the reason it appears to work is that it prevents you from kissing ass and acting like the world revolves around the female. It means that you are at least capable of actively questioning the worth of the female, so she is forced to earn her own way. In other words she is treated as though she is morally on par with all other human life on planet earth, for whom life is ordinarily a challenge.

As for me, I'm happily married and that was never my style to begin with, in fact I tended to the opposite direction. Until I grew up, developed some confidence, stopped kissing ass, and quit whining all the time about how unfair life is. And if I've learned anything about women, it's that they do not respond to need with anything other than contempt and possibly pity if you're lucky. If you "need" a woman emotionally, if you cannot stand on your own as a man without her, she will despise you. As she should.

Think about it from the female point of view. Wouldn't you be selling yourself short if you didn't aspire to a mate that had to be won over rather than somebody that acts like your presence is a continual gift? Wouldn't that become quite annoying in fact, especially as you gradually uncovered its insincerity, came to see it as camouflage for a romantic aspiration marked only by timidity?

It's been true forever, and it will remain true: timid heart never won fair lady.

Not sure how I feel about those remarks. On the one hand, it's nice to be "won over", on the other hand, too often what passes for "wooing" is deception and manipulation. Do men secretly resent the effort it takes? Because if they do, it's not going to last past the "winning" stage and therefore will engender disappointment and resentment later on, when the lady finds out that he was just being nice to get what he wanted.

As far as "questioning the worth"... I feel so worthless just reading that. Is that what love is about? Love is unconditional. Not that there's no common sense involved, but what worth are any of us? Love is valuing another person whether they rise or fall (and especially when they fall). If you can't love her when she looks like hell or says the wrong thing, find someone else.

There's a paradox. On the one hand, if the relationship is meant to be, it will happen; no one should have to kill themselves to MAKE it happen. On the other hand, I would cross heaven and earth for my husband. If that was what he wanted. But what he really wants, actually, is just someone to be there and to talk to. And so do I. (Oh, and there is "getting some" as part of it, too.)

I wouldn't presume to judge anyone's happiness or try to speak authoritatively about what makes it tick, although sometimes the way things are presented invites speculation. And I do realize that women are extremely complicated creatures that actively defy all attempts to verbally encapsulate their qualities.

But I do judge bitter and angry "nice guys" as quoted in the OP.

my stepson is an asshole. he lies, cheats on his gf's, knocked two of them up and refuses to take care of the kids. he doesn't work often, and when he does it is retail.

and yet he keeps getting these seemingly great girls to fall in love with him.

Sarge...I don't know what to say.

Not sure what influence you had on this stepson, but it could not have been much if he turned out that way.

Hard to imagine any son of Julie's behaving that way; he ought to have more respect for women.

Nor can I put it on the bio-dad...he must have had considerable redeeming qualities to have gotten the opportunity to sire a child on that fine lady.


I guess I have to settle for "I'm sorry to hear that."

good posts ussusimiel and Syl---Orlion and Don: you guys need to lighten up a little!

danlo wrote:good posts ussusimiel and Syl---Orlion and Don: you guys need to lighten up a little!

I call them like I see them.