Story-Purpose of She Who Must Not Be Named?

[wayfriend]

I admit I haven't yet refined my thoughts on the matter.

But we can't argue against what the text actually does reveal ("I AM MYSELF!" is cried as a revelatation!) and I have confidence in SRD that, had SWMNBN's actual literal name mattered, it would have been given to us.

The notion that SWMNBN isn't just "Linden's Lord Foul" is mine, but I am confident in it.

The rest is working backwards from there.

I hope SRD is ready for Elohimfest. It promises to be a very long and arduous affair for him.

[dlbpharmd]

I have confidence in SRD that, had SWMNBN's actual literal name mattered, it would have been given to us.

I tend to agree. Once we learned that She wasn't just Diassomer Mininderain, her actual name wouldn't have meant much to us.

[Zarathustra]

This is the relevant text for the points I was making from the last page:

Linden Avery was drowning in She Who Must Not Be Named. She knew the truth, and her terror was absolute. She had released a flood among the roots of Mount Thunder. Because of her, ancient poisons and the accumulated weight of millennia had thundered into the cavern. They had swept her companions out of existence, carried Jeremiah and Covenant like flotsam to the bottom of the world. Everything that she had ever loved was gone.

But mere water could not harm her now. She had not accompanied her son and her only true lover to their deaths. Instead she had been swallowed by shrieking and hunger. She Who Must Not Be Named had claimed her. Simultaneously preserved and excruciated by betrayed desire and rage, Emereau Vrai and Diassomer Mininderain and the Auriference and Elena and a host of lost women had taken Linden. She had been consumed by the reified outcome of her actions in Jeremiah's name, and in Covenant's. Her own name had become agony.

...

While the Arch endured, her name would always be agony. And even then--Ah, then!--Voices like her own wailed of torments that could never end. When all of creation had been unmade, She Who Must Not e Named would remain. Her anguish would remain. She was an eternal begin: a concept as essential and illimitable as Creation or Despite. Tortures would expand beyond the swallowed stars, beyond the salvific definitions of Time, beyond comprehension, until they filled the reaches of infinity. They could not die, and so they could not stop. The treachery which had formed the bane could not be healed.

...

Soon [Linden] would be Emereau Vrai as well: the woman forcibly bereft of her Elohim lover; the woman who had conceived the merewives in fury and mourning. She would be the Auriferene, whose greed had made her as daring as the Harrow, and as foolish. Eventually she would be Diassomer Mininderain and know the truth.

It was that Covenant had not betrayed her. Never. That was Roger's doing. But since then, she had betrayed herself. And her friends. And the Land.

And her son.
She brought her doom upon herself.

This is what convinced me that Linden = She. For two books now, every one of Linden's actions has been "in the name of" Jer and Cov. None of her attempts "in their names" has brought about wholeness for them (they had to supply that for themselves). So she has come to the point of realizing that she can no longer strive for other people as her ultimate goal. Their own lives are their responsibilities. She has a responsibility to herself: to uphold her values for what she loves: Beauty, Life, the Land. By living "in the name" of other people, she has sacrificed the Land, Beauty, and Life.

Therefore, her task in the Last Dark becomes one of healing the Land, again. She is the one who goes back to retrieve the memory of Forbidding. She brings back a forestal. In her quest to fulfill Wildwood's question, she leaves her son and risks never seeing him (or Cov) again. She's finally living "in her name."

And this is symbolized by her recognizing I AM MYSELF, not merely Jer's mom or Cov's wife. She has purposes and goals that are her own, and not merely those that strive to redeem her son and lover.

[iQuestor]

I admit I haven't yet refined my thoughts on the matter.

But we can't argue against what the text actually does reveal ("I AM MYSELF!" is cried as a revelatation!) and I have confidence in SRD that, had SWMNBN's actual literal name mattered, it would have been given to us.

The notion that SWMNBN isn't just "Linden's Lord Foul" is mine, but I am confident in it.

The rest is working backwards from there.

- DO you mean SWMNBN is somehow an externalization of Linden? (Because they are separate physical entities, no doubt. ) Maybe in the same sense that Foul is an externalization of Covenant?

I hope SRD is ready for Elohimfest. It promises to be a very long and arduous affair for him

I'm not sure it will be anything but good for SRD. I'm not happy with TLC and TLD in particular, but I doubt I would ever tell him that unless he asked my opinion, which he wouldn't do. I don't think any of us who are dissatisfied would (or should) give him grief or ask questions which are rooted in negativity. Its his story and he told it the way he did.

[dlbpharmd]

This is the relevant text for the points I was making from the last page:

Linden Avery was drowning in She Who Must Not Be Named. She knew the truth, and her terror was absolute. She had released a flood among the roots of Mount Thunder. Because of her, ancient poisons and the accumulated weight of millennia had thundered into the cavern. They had swept her companions out of existence, carried Jeremiah and Covenant like flotsam to the bottom of the world. Everything that she had ever loved was gone.

But mere water could not harm her now. She had not accompanied her son and her only true lover to their deaths. Instead she had been swallowed by shrieking and hunger. She Who Must Not Be Named had claimed her. Simultaneously preserved and excruciated by betrayed desire and rage, Emereau Vrai and Diassomer Mininderain and the Auriference and Elena and a host of lost women had taken Linden. She had been consumed by the reified outcome of her actions in Jeremiah's name, and in Covenant's. Her own name had become agony.

...

While the Arch endured, her name would always be agony. And even then--Ah, then!--Voices like her own wailed of torments that could never end. When all of creation had been unmade, She Who Must Not e Named would remain. Her anguish would remain. She was an eternal begin: a concept as essential and illimitable as Creation or Despite. Tortures would expand beyond the swallowed stars, beyond the salvific definitions of Time, beyond comprehension, until they filled the reaches of infinity. They could not die, and so they could not stop. The treachery which had formed the bane could not be healed.

...

Soon [Linden] would be Emereau Vrai as well: the woman forcibly bereft of her Elohim lover; the woman who had conceived the merewives in fury and mourning. She would be the Auriferene, whose greed had made her as daring as the Harrow, and as foolish. Eventually she would be Diassomer Mininderain and know the truth.

It was that Covenant had not betrayed her. Never. That was Roger's doing. But since then, she had betrayed herself. And her friends. And the Land.

And her son.
She brought her doom upon herself.

This is what convinced me that Linden = She. For two books now, every one of Linden's actions has been "in the name of" Jer and Cov. None of her attempts "in their names" has brought about wholeness for them (they had to supply that for themselves). So she has come to the point of realizing that she can no longer strive for other people as her ultimate goal. Their own lives are their responsibilities. She has a responsibility to herself: to uphold her values for what she loves: Beauty, Life, the Land. By living "in the name" of other people, she has sacrificed the Land, Beauty, and Life.

Therefore, her task in the Last Dark becomes one of healing the Land, again. She is the one who goes back to retrieve the memory of Forbidding. She brings back a forestal. In her quest to fulfill Wildwood's question, she leaves her son and risks never seeing him (or Cov) again. She's finally living "in her name."

And this is symbolized by her recognizing I AM MYSELF, not merely Jer's mom or Cov's wife. She has purposes and goals that are her own, and not merely those that strive to redeem her son and lover.

Damn good post, Zar!

[wayfriend]

This is what convinced me that Linden = She.

So, for you, Linden is She.

But those words, she had betrayed etc., are what Linden fears she is. They are not who Linden is; Linden has never betrayed anyone. But, as I said, she has always been accused of betrayal; she believes herself a betrayer when she listens to her parents, to the Haruchai, to the Elohim. Her darkness is built on accusations of betrayal - and her own belief that she is evil.

Also, SWMNBN hasn't betrayed anyone either. She is the victim of betrayal, who sees betrayal in everyone and everything else.

If you draw a conclusion that Linden is She, I can't see making it on the bases that both of them are betrayers.

By living "in the name" of other people, she has sacrificed the Land, Beauty, and Life.

I cannot even begin to address that. If you're coming from somewhere where that notion is possible to have, then it is too alien for me to speak to.

DO you mean SWMNBN is somehow an externalization of Linden?

Just the opposite.

Donaldson called SWMNBM Linden's biggest fear. He never articulated any claims about parallel identity - while he clearly articulated a parallel identity between Lord Foul and Covenant all along.

People criticise the fact that SWMNBN is a retcon -- and yet the very fact that She shows up late in the game argues against any parallel identity between Linden and She. That only makes sense if Linden had been dealing with She all along, and she hadn't been.

So my take is that SWMNBN is an externalization, but not of Linden's darker self, or any other self. Rather, it is an externalization which confronts Linden with her worst fears about herself.

Perhaps that DOES mean that She is an externalization of Linden, if you define it loosely enough. But here, I only mean that She isn't Linden's Lord Foul. Think about the Land - it's not leprosy, it's the exact opposite of leprosy. And yet it is an externalization which makes Covenant confront what it is necessary to confront about himself. I think She is more like that.

[iQuestor]

Just the opposite.

Donaldson called SWMNBM Linden's biggest fear. He never articulated any claims about parallel identity - while he clearly articulated a parallel identity between Lord Foul and Covenant all along.

People criticise the fact that SWMNBN is a retcon -- and yet the very fact that She shows up late in the game argues against any parallel identity between Linden and She. That only makes sense if Linden had been dealing with She all along, and she hadn't been.

So my take is that SWMNBN is an externalization, but not of Linden's darker self, or any other self. Rather, it is an externalization which confronts Linden with her worst fears about herself.

Perhaps that DOES mean that She is an externalization of Linden, if you define it loosely enough. But here, I only mean that She isn't Linden's Lord Foul. Think about the Land - it's not leprosy, it's the exact opposite of leprosy. And yet it is an externalization which makes Covenant confront what it is necessary to confront about himself. I think She is more like that.

OK, so do you mean that She somehow is an embodiment of those things Linden is most afraid of? Do you beleive that She was somehow created in direct response to Linden? As perhaps some kind of foil of Linden's psyche?

Whether or not She was a direct externalization of Linden (Like Foul was to Covenant), or not; She's merging with Linden in some way "completed" Linden; repaired the damage or healed the lack of her Psyche, to somehow make her whole, and able to be self-fulfilled.


And, think about her moniker: She WHo Must Not Be Named. This can be taken in 2 ways:

- Either one must not speak her name (she has one),
- or one who must not be given a name (She doesn't have one)

I had assumed the first, as if invoking her name would be destruction to the speaker, but now I think its the second one. She should not be given a name. And ultimately, she wasnt given a name, She was simply, Herself.

this would fit in with an externalization of Linden's broken psyche, whether it was a direct externalization, or somehow indirectly contrived.

[wayfriend]

OK, so do you mean that She somehow is an embodiment of those things Linden is most afraid of? Do you beleive that She was somehow created in direct response to Linden? As perhaps some kind of foil of Linden's psyche?

Yes. Essentially. My ideas haven't firmed up much beyond that yet.

Whether or not She was a direct externalization of Linden (Like Foul was to Covenant), or not; She's merging with Linden in some way "completed" Linden; repaired the damage or healed the lack of her Psyche, to somehow make her whole, and able to be self-fulfilled.

That I do not know about yet - I haven't thought about it enough. But I will.

This can be taken in 2 ways

Interesting!

[Zarathustra]

Linden has never betrayed anyone.

As per the AATE quote, she thinks she has betrayed herself. So she's both the betrayer and betrayed. And her "biggest fear" would be accepting that this is true--that she damned the Land by trying to redeem others. Doing so was inauthentic because its not her place to redeem others who must redeem themselves, and it goes against who she is to betray the Land. Facing yourself when you haven't been true to yourself can be one of the scariest things we do.

By living "in the name" of other people, she has sacrificed the Land, Beauty, and Life.

I cannot even begin to address that. If you're coming from somewhere where that notion is possible to have, then it is too alien for me to speak to.

By living purely for Jeremiah and Covenant, trying to rescue and resurrect, she woke the Worm. What's alien about that? That's what happened.

The conflict of Linden choosing between the Land and Jeremiah was set up from the beginning of Runes. Linden quite clearly stated that if it came down to a choice between the two, she'd choose Jeremiah, even if it meant the destruction of the Land. And that's what she did.

What's interesting is what she says about the Creator not warning her because He knew that the Land needed Jeremiah. This is really saying that Linden's own Creator side (assuming we all have one) knew deep down that the Land still needed caring, to be valued and protected. Or maybe it was the memory of TC's creator side that knew this. Either way, the authentic part of herself didn't succumb to the fear that would have taken Jeremiah out of harm's way, and sacrificed the Land. Thus, there was alway this chance that the Land could be saved, from the very beginning in Runes, as long as she did not protect Jeremiah from this need for restoration (of Land, Beauty, etc.). In fact, the two aren't mutually exclusive as she once thought, as long as she was willing to risk allowing him to be his own person who could join that fight in his own way. Instead of protecting him from it, she gave him a choice to take a stand with her against all things ending.

[wayfriend]

It's alien to me because you've built an entirely different edifice based on a sweeping set of premises that I largely don't agree with. It cannot be addressed in one post, or a hundred. I will post my thoughts on certain points as time goes on - I just got here! But I have certainly read a different book than you did; in my book, Linden was true to herself, and saved the Land by rousing the Worm, and rescuing her son and resurrecting Covenant was absolutely the right thing to do. Certainly those premises would need to be tackled first, anyway.

[Zarathustra]

WF, in the book you read, did Linden make any mistakes? If so, what were they? In the end, the hardest thing for her was being able to forgive herself. What did she have to forgive, in your opinion, if all these things she did was "absolutely right?"

I don't think that trying to rescue Jeremiah was a mistake--nor did I say that--but she certainly made some whoppers along the way, in the way she performed this act. I'm not judging whether or not the ends justify the means. I'm simply pointing out that her means included some pretty crappy consequences. Wouldn't you agree? Well, she did those things by putting her son and her dead lover above both the Land and herself. Yes, ultimately, this leads to redemption for both the Land and herself, so in that sense I could see where you might be tempted to say it was "absolutely the right thing to do," but that's justifying the means by ends. It might have turned out otherwise. In justifying her deeds through hindsight, it's a denial that anything wrong was done. There's nothing inaccurate in claiming that some of the things Linden did were horrible. How else can you recognize that she needed to forgive herself? If she merely interpreted what she did as "absolutely the right thing to do," it wouldn't require forgiveness. Was she wrong about her own character development? Was there actually nothing about her actions or herself that she had to forgive?

That's like saying Covenant doesn't have a Foul inside him. It the very denial that I believe Donaldson was showing us we must all give up.

[wayfriend]

Zarathustra, in the posts you read, did I say I wasn't going to try and tackle all this yet?

[lurch]

DrPaul..I 'am not saying what Love IS.. as much as..when reciprocated..its at least doubled..Its "magnificence" increases perhaps exponentially, when reciprocated.. She never heard the echo of it resounding off of Jeremiah or TC...Perhaps when reciprocated, she gained the real knowledge of the Goodness, trustworthiness etc, of Love...??

[TheFallen]

I admit I haven't yet refined my thoughts on the matter.

But we can't argue against what the text actually does reveal ("I AM MYSELF!" is cried as a revelatation!) and I have confidence in SRD that, had SWMNBN's actual literal name mattered, it would have been given to us.

...except somewhere in the GI (I think), when quizzed about SWMNBN, SRD says that if SHE ever did find out HER real name, such a thing would shatter the Arch of Time. So the matter of HER name hardly seems to be a trivial thing...

As I've already posted elsewhere, I also (grumblingly) believe that SHE is no more than a hurriedly dropped-in generalised embodiment of scorned women, and as such SHE represents Linden's final and most personally profound challenge - Linden needs to overcome her innate fear of rejection and temptation to believe that she's too corrupt to be worthy of love - the legacy from her parents, as WF rightly says. Only by vanquishing (or, as it turns out, healing) this inner/outer demon can Linden be transfigured.

Having said that, SHE all of a sudden pops onto centre stage 8 or more books in, which makes HER seem like absolutely no more than hastily conceived and written, an externalisation WHOSE sole purpose is to be the opponent in Linden's final battle. A classic deus ex machina and nothing more.

On that basis, what I just cannot understand is why SRD didn't make SHE - or at least SHE's starting point - Diassomer Mininderain? I mean, this possibility had been set up within the Clave's legend-telling in the Second Chrons, where it was made clear that Diassomer was the first and thus the archetypal deceived woman, the Eve of the Land if you like. Moreover, Diassomer was described as the Creator's wife, so HER return to godlike powers upon HER release (cf. her bitchslapping LF as SHE headed home to outside the Arch of Time) would have felt as if it had some grounds at least. It would have been a way more narratively satisfying and seamless explanation, with no real taint of retconning.

But SRD quite deliberately rejects this possibility, stating categorically through Caer-ur Mahrtiir that Diassomer is just another part of SHE, no more than one of a million once lost souls. That's a far more disappointing explanation and I cannot for the life of me see why SRD took this way more trite path. I mean, what would have been the downside of making SHE Diassomer?

I hope SRD is ready for Elohimfest. It promises to be a very long and arduous affair for him.

I doubt he'll get asked too many pointed and critical questions... people tend to be too polite.

[Zarathustra]

... somewhere in the GI (I think), when quizzed about SWMNBN, SRD says that if SHE ever did find out HER real name, such a thing would shatter the Arch of Time. So the matter of HER name hardly seems to be a trivial thing...

Exactly. In fact, the issue of her not being able to face her name is part of her name ... or title. It's pretty important. Why would it be equal to breaking the Arch? Because Linden can't forgive herself--yet. Not being able to forgive or face oneself can lead to suicide. If this world is in the mind of the protagonists, then their suicide would be the end of that world.

But even when Linden realizes it's herself, the Arch is literally breaking. So even when she's ready to make that realization, that identification, she's in the midst of a world-changing flux.

Having said that, SHE all of a sudden pops onto centre stage 8 or more books in, which makes HER seem like absolutely no more than hastily conceived and written, an externalisation WHOSE sole purpose is to be the opponent in Linden's final battle. A classic deus ex machina and nothing more.

Well, you could same the same of Linden herself, who didn't appear in the first 3 books. She all of a sudden drops into the story. However, after that, she definitely earns her place in the story. SHE should have had a bigger role in the outcome of events.

On that basis, what I just cannot understand is why SRD didn't make SHE - or at least SHE's starting point - Diassomer Mininderain? I mean, this possibility had been set up within the Clave's legend-telling in the Second Chrons, where it was made clear that Diassomer was the first and thus the archetypal deceived woman, the Eve of the Land if you like. Moreover, Diassomer was described as the Creator's wife, so HER return to godlike powers upon HER release (cf. her bitchslapping LF as SHE headed home to outside the Arch of Time) would have felt as if it had some grounds at least. It would have been a way more narratively satisfying and seamless explanation, with no real taint of retconning.

Are you sure he didn't do that? In the AATE quote I provided above, Donaldson seems to predict Linden's next steps after meeting SHE:

Soon [Linden] would be Emereau Vrai as well: the woman forcibly bereft of her Elohim lover; the woman who had conceived the merewives in fury and mourning. She would be the Auriferene, whose greed had made her as daring as the Harrow, and as foolish. Eventually she would be Diassomer Mininderain and know the truth.

Take those sentences one at a time. This is just before Covenant leaves her to deal with his ex-wife, so she is very soon "forcibly bererft" of her lover. "Fury and mourning" seems to capture her stance for the next few chapters as she kills, fights, and self-mutilates. I'm not sure about the next line, because she doesn't ever seem greedy ... except when it comes to needing love from her son, for which she'll risk everything, sometimes foolishly, and most certainly daringly. Perhaps it's about her attemtps to free Jeremiah from the croyal?

But the last line is the most interesting. It's only when she "becomes" Diassomer Mininderain that she knows the truth. And that truth is stated clearly in the next paragraph, namely, that she betrayed herself and the Land. She hasn't been betrayed ... she's the betrayer. (That's a theme she has in common with Joan, blaming the victim of your own betrayal, so that you don't have to face the pain that you're really the betrayer.)

[wayfriend]

New thought.

SWMNBN is a foil for Lord Foul. Both are cosmic beings trapped in the Arch.

However, the Covenants free SWMNBN, while they forbid Lord Foul from departing.

So the foil reveals one thing, and that's that freeing Lord Foul was a feasible option. The choice was there, and Covenant made the choice of integration. Which is a different statement than it would be if integration was the only feasible option.

So: The Grand Unification was chosen, not forced upon Covenant.

As a corollary to that, we also know that integration was also on the table for SWMNBN. But instead SWMNBN was freed.

So: either SWMNBN wasn't an aspect of someone (like Foul of Covenant), or at least She was an aspect that didn't require integration for some reason.

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that the resolution of SWMNBN sheds light on the resolution of Lord Foul, and that does qualify as a story-purpose.

[Zarathustra]

I think your point that SHE didn't require integration is correct. That's because forgiving oneself is an act of letting something go, whether it's the guilt or the self-punishment, i.e. that one's mistakes define one forever. It's the counterpart to accepting Lord Foul, or one's own inner Despiser. It's the difference between the sin and the sinner. TC accepted that he was a person capable of "sin." Linden accepted that she had committed "sins," but (as she tells Jeremiah) we're not defined by our mistakes. Those mistakes aren't the sum of who we are. So while accepting Foul into TC is an act of identification, accepting responsibility for one's mistakes and forgiving oneself for it is the opposite realization. Instead of an identification it's a separation, the realization that those mistakes don't define you. So Linden lets SHE go, while TC internalizes Foul.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

A first observation: I did not, somehow, for the life of me, think that the Old Lords forgiving Kevin while Linden did not forgive Elena would turn out to be such a pivotal problem for Linden. It seemed more like what Covenant did to Atiaran, i.e. a tragic example of the protagonists' moral limits. But suddenly we find that redeeming the women of the Lost Deep is very important to Linden. Now this makes sense insofar as she more than the rest of her companions knows what the hell inside SWMNBN is like, and as a compassionate doctor, she is motivated to end their suffering.

The reason for Her being in the story has to do with Covenant's weird metaphysical lecture at the start of AATE, I think. Both Love and the Law have been thought of as opposites of Despite, though various characters have openly remarked that such opposition does not truly obtain. To truly solve the problem of Despite, then, means doing something about Despite's corruption of Love and the Law. Linden redeems Love from Despite as Jeremiah remakes the Law, arguably, and Covenant effects the most final of all defeats of the Despiser.

Something like that, hopefully...

[wayfriend]

Absolutely I agree that Covenant was speaking about SWMNBN as you describe.

I an not so sure that Linden didn't forgive Elena... the problem seemed to be more along the lines that she didn't say it when she had the chance. If she really didn't forgive Elena, she would not have regretted not saying it, right?

[SkurjMaster]

I would like to change the name of SWMNBN to SWIWHNBI:

"She Who I Wish Had Not Been Included."

You can take "I create what I need for the story" too far.

This character/creature alone was almost a good reason to shake your head in wonder at the choice for its conclusion. I know that I pop in here from time to time lately and write stuff that makes me look like a constant downer, but it was choices like this that really blighted my enjoyment of the LCs. When you start personifying emotions to tell a story you run the risk of.... Well, it is hard to say where exactly that you wind up when you make these choices. I don't even have a phrase for it any better than to say that the end of the story waxed philosophic in the extreme. Yes SRD always had things to say of a philosophical nature, but I don't know how anyone realistically can say that SWMNBN was the best vehicle for accomplishing the conclusion of the story.

Guess I need to go back to the "Suggesting Changes..." thread.