Kevin's Watch

I too was underwhelmed with the ending. Given that Foul (or so it appeared for much of the whole chronicles) was the master of manipulation I would have thought that the final confrontation would have been more fully expanded, particularly since TC's wrestle with despite was the whole crux of the series. Clearly SRD for whatever reason cut short the whole ending.
One thing I hope someone can shed some light on is the memories that Jerry receives off the raver (p504). There's mention of ancient tapestries in the north, a periapt and also as I recall another treasure. Have those tales ever been told anywhere in the chrons?

ozrics wrote:I too was underwhelmed with the ending. Given that Foul (or so it appeared for much of the whole chronicles) was the master of manipulation I would have thought that the final confrontation would have been more fully expanded, particularly since TC's wrestle with despite was the whole crux of the series. Clearly SRD for whatever reason cut short the whole ending.
One thing I hope someone can shed some light on is the memories that Jerry receives off the raver (p504). There's mention of ancient tapestries in the north, a periapt and also as I recall another treasure. Have those tales ever been told anywhere in the chrons?

Those are the locations to Kevins Wards 4, 5 and 6.

Ah thanks IQ, my memory is terrible, I'll have to do yet another re-read though my apetite (like the worm) is somewhat diminished and I feel like slumbering for a while.
I really wish there would be separate sub books on the urviles/waynim and also the ranyhyn - they deserve their full story to be told

ozrics wrote: I really wish there would be separate sub books on the urviles/waynim and also the ranyhyn - they deserve their full story to be told

I would love to hear how the Ramen came to protect the Ranyhyn.

..There is something to...a whole universe of story...of the Wayhim possessed Women. ..Perhaps Donaldson's daughter could pick that one up and run with it.

..or..The Pre TC Life of Mishio Massima!: Eternal Fields of Grass.

..or..Modern Urban Planning,by...The UrViles..

...The Kresh..by PETA

I saw where WF had quoted himself from an earlier prediction about the end. That got me thinking about some of my own predictions.

In my thread on yoga and how it will all end (AATE forum), I'd talked about the solutions Donaldson gave us for the "problem of evil" in the 1st and 2nd Chrons, which were resistance and surrender (respectively). And then I speculated on the end here:

Earlier this year, I wrote:So this brings us to the Last Chronicles. The next logical step in this stepwise progression through the union of opposites is a union of both surrender and resistance. I'm not sure exactly what form that will take, but I feel certain that this is the obvious choice for a thematic solution. And given the need for a permanent solution (as per SRD above), and the fact that the Last Chronicles is about time and the essential necessity of sequential structure, I found this quote (from a yoga blog) to be interesting:

In our experience as temporal beings, opposites occur sequentially. In order to court the deep union between these opposing forces, we require a practice ground where we can apply them in turn, repetitively, observing the changes.

Repetition is the only kind of permanence we can hope to achieve in a world where All Things End. Cycles. Returning full circle. The oscillation of life and death and rebirth. Maybe somewhere in all this is a clue to the end.

So obviously, taking LF into himself is an acceptance of his "dark side," his own capacity to be a destroyer and Despiser. But it is also something he must now keep at bay within him, resisting and containing LF through this acceptance.

This is the combination of the two previous solutions, which were necessarily step-wise because of Time. But when Time itself is breaking down, only then is Covenant able to perform these contradictory actions simultaneously, when the Arch itself is breaking down.

And then we get the Grand Reptition: remaking the Land. Coming full circle. Life/death/rebirth.

Okay, here's an idea not yet floated.

Did Donaldson re-affirm the dream/real duality of the Land by leaving it somewhat ambiguous as to whether or not the Triumvirate actually re-built the Land, or just re-created their shared dream?

Just an idea I am thinking about. But the ending of TLD reminds me of the ending of Repo Men in some respects.

wayfriend wrote:Did Donaldson re-affirm the dream/real duality of the Land by leaving it somewhat ambiguous as to whether or not the Triumvirate actually re-built the Land, or just re-created their shared dream?

Oy. From there it is but a small step to an Impressive Clergyman speaking about "a dweem wifin a dweem..."

WF...you have your movies, I have mine.

...how a bout....TCoTC.. as a State of Mind..which is how Surrealism itself has been described...The only tangibles are..the readers Feelings, thoughts, abstracts, ..therefore it is all about ..our own imagination and our own creativity and eventually,,are own answer to the question...Who Am I?...

Has 'the Watch become the Work' then?

so I was doing some random page reading in my office(the bathroom) and I may have stumbled across an answer to the creator disappearance. although covenant is just guessing when he states this, I think it is actually a very plausible reason for the creators absence. AATE page 557

He no longer wondered why the old beggar had not given Linden warning of her peril. The Creator had recognized his own defeat. He had abandoned his creation.

illender wrote:so I was doing some random page reading in my office(the bathroom) and I may have stumbled across an answer to the creator disappearance. although covenant is just guessing when he states this, I think it is actually a very plausible reason for the creators absence. AATE page 557

He no longer wondered why the old beggar had not given Linden warning of her peril. The Creator had recognized his own defeat. He had abandoned his creation.

I just don't think Donaldson was prepared to voice God once again, and as such we were given no real satisfactory account for the Creator's absence, my son.

By the end of TLD TC, Linden and Jeremiah were the Creator.

[edit; Or maybe the Insequent were the Creator, hence the strictures placed on their 'interaction and the odd chatachter in the skyline at the end.]

There were lots of reasons given throughout the book to explain the discrepancy with the Creator's appearance, often as reflections of their mood at the time. I don't think the characters in the story ever really know exactly what is the cause.

However, thematically I agree it has to do with the passing on the role of Creator to the Creator's "acolyte". He has to stand on his own.

...which circles back to the Insequent on the skyline that Peter mentioned at the end. As TC says:

In the Epilogue to TLD was wrote:At first, Covenant smiled. "It looks to me," he said wryly, "like the Insequent are finally giving credence to the idea of acolytes." He almost chuckled. "In fact, if I had to guess, I might say that's the Acolyte."

At first sight, this seems simple enough... the Insequent, who have always laboured in secret and alone at their various self-set and completely absorbing interests, seem now to be prepared to learn from others - or at least from the dynamic trio. Hence this previously unseen Insequent being termed "the Acolyte", presumably an acolyte to TC and crew.

However, almost in the next breath, there's a strong implication that it's actually the fab three that need to learn from and be guided by the Insequent.

In the Epilogue to TLD was wrote:"We all need time." And possibly a teacher, he mused ruefully. If so, one of the Insequent might serve. The Theomach had certainly guided Berek well enough...

...Together they walked away in the direction taken by the Insequent.

So... who are we intended to think is teaching who, here? It's a little confused, to say the least.

TheFallen wrote:So... who are we intended to think is teaching who, here? It's a little confused, to say the least.

The Covenants have power, but they do not have lore. A comment that has been implied off and on since Runes. The Insequent are going to rectify that need.

The ur-viles can't, not really (their lore is outside of Law). The Elohim cannot (they have never needed it). And there are no Lords or rhadhamaerl or lillianrill any longer. Who else?

Covenant makes the need for lore plain. When asked why he must depart, he answers "Unearned Knowledge. Right now, we're too dangerous." And explains why. And then:

In [i]The Last Dark[/i] was wrote:“We all need time.”

And possibly a teacher, he mused ruefully. If so, one of the Insequent might serve. The Theomach had certainly guided Berek Halfhand well enough.

(WF, that habit of yours of not entirely reading posts is getting worse! You quoted the exact same passage that I just did in the post immediately beforehand!)

Okay... so I'll buy that the fab three need schooling in lore, to "earn" their unearned knowledge... and that the Insequent, being the very masters of lore (well, the only human ones around) could provide this...

But that doesn't explain why Covenant refers to that last Insequent as "the Acolyte". Acolytes learn from masters, not vice versa.

I'm aware I'm being very and possibly inappropriately literal here, but the apparent confusion bothers me a little.

wayfriend wrote:

TheFallen wrote:So... who are we intended to think is teaching who, here? It's a little confused, to say the least.

The Covenants have power, but they do not have lore. A comment that has been implied off and on since Runes. The Insequent are going to rectify that need.

The ur-viles can't, not really (their lore is outside of Law). The Elohim cannot (they have never needed it). And there are no Lords or rhadhamaerl or lillianrill any longer. Who else?

Yes. Especially since they are the only ones alive that we know of who have done anything like lore/knowledge-seeking connected to White Gold. This is very important since it has always been external/imported...now it is present/part of the world. It's been somewhat akin to a nuke missile...it's gotta become more like a power plant...part of the grid.

TheFallen wrote:(WF, that habit of yours of not entirely reading posts is getting worse! You quoted the exact same passage that I just did in the post immediately beforehand!)

Really? That's the only possible reason?

TheFallen wrote:But that doesn't explain why Covenant refers to that last Insequent as "the Acolyte". Acolytes learn from masters, not vice versa.

Well, I postulated in another thread that the success of the Ardent prompted the Insequent to rethink their ideas of interdependence. I think the Insequent of the final chapter indicates, by clothing style at least, that she is acolyte to the Mahdoubt, the Theomach, and the Ardent. A new age of Insequent cooperation.

So, in terms of lore, the Covenants would be taught, in a way, by all of those other Insequent. Which seems apropos.

Maybe that's not correct. But I do think here that "the Acolyte" refers to being an acolyte of other Insequent [who have helped the Covenants in the past], not of Covenant.

It doesn't seem like a sound idea, in the Conclusion of Conclusions, that Donaldson would hint that Covenant himself has a successor in the Creation business. He just got here! Then again, maybe he would. The use of the term could be a cryptic hint. But if it is, nothing would ever be written about it.

TheFallen wrote: Acolytes learn from masters, not vice versa.

No. An acolyte is not only, or even primarily, a student...and the master is not only, nor primarily, a teacher.