Kevin's Watch

Innominate Theurgist wrote:And while on the subject of the ravers, any theories as to why Branl, Clyme and the krill could;why Nom and Grimmand kinda could; but the Forestals, acknowledged badasses of the Land and merciless, Elohim-derived avengers of tree-butchers could not?

I recall a moksha POV where he remembers his slaying in the Illearth War, and how his spirit very nearly perished. Was it possible for a Forestal to almost, but not quite, slay one of their foes? That, well, stinks.

In both cases of Raver slaying there was a need for self sacrifice. I'm guessing no tree in the One Forest was selfless enough to host a raver before being turned into kindlings. I was never clear on the part of the animal kingdom in the One Forest. Were the insects and bunnies part of the forest spirit? What about the fungii and the woodchucks?

That is pretty much what I figured, also. I'm sure could Wildwood have annihilated a Raver, he never would have let one escape his grasp, after all.

I think, as far as animals went, they just lived in the Forest, but took no part in its essential 'tree-soul'. Recall how utterly dismissive Wildwood was toward Linden's Ranyhyn.

Although, it seems Forestals could command animals at will: Caer-Caveral sent that horde of spiders to 'bandage' Covenant in Morinmoss, after all.

I think that in both cases (Clyne and the Master), the Raver went into them first, and it was only their ability to hold the Raver there and not let it leave, that allowed for the Raver's destruction.

I'd assume that no Raver ever would have willingly possessed a tree, and certainly not one in any forest still protected by a Forestal.

Presumably, the original personality/spirit/souls of the Giants who were taken by the Ravers in the 1C were completely destroyed by the time Caerroil Wildwood and Lord Mhoram killed their bodies, and thus unable to hold the Raver there so it could be truly killed.

Innominate Theurgist wrote:And while on the subject of the ravers, any theories as to why Branl, Clyme and the krill could;why Nom and Grimmand kinda could; but the Forestals, acknowledged badasses of the Land and merciless, Elohim-derived avengers of tree-butchers could not?

I recall a moksha POV where he remembers his slaying in the Illearth War, and how his spirit very nearly perished. Was it possible for a Forestal to almost, but not quite, slay one of their foes? That, well, stinks.

This sounds like a very good (and tough) question, and starkllr gives a good answer. I've always wondered if Caerroil Wildwood waited until after tormenting Fleshharrower before destroying the fragment of the Illearth Stone, and if so, if this prevented the Giant from containing Jehannum's spirit at the moment of bodily death, allowing moksha to escape because the Giant stilled clutched the Stone fragment. Maybe that's it.

As for turiya being completely destroyed vs samadhi just being rent: Clyme contained turiya until Branl had chopped him into many pieces with the krill, in contrast to Nom just holding Honninscrave and fatally squeezing him while Honninscrave contained samadhi. This still leaves the question: were Branl and Clyme more successful in utterly destroying a Raver because of employing dismemberment, or because Loric's krill was used? I think the use of the krill was what made the difference, just can't be sure.

There just never seemed a definitive end to any Raver. Even with Clyme hacked to bits right in front of my eyes, I still am of the belief that any of them, much less turiya, could re-constitute themselves out of just malicious demand. It seems like the author had them almost dead, almost put out of existence , so many times,,that,,yes,,Jerry simply liberating moksha, is perhaps the smartest thing to do. By containing and controlling Despair, its servants and enablers become lessened as well. Kinda like a play on the the oriental Sun saying..keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer. Jerry liberating moksha suggests to me the idea that perhaps you really can't " kill" fear, hate, loathing, jealousy, etc etc..but the best any can do is be well aware of those and how they " feel" so we know when they are influencing our existence.

The idea of..the trees know what they are,,and therefore would never tolerate a Raver's presence, strikes me as poetically correct.

Cord Hurn wrote:

Innominate Theurgist wrote:And while on the subject of the ravers, any theories as to why Branl, Clyme and the krill could;why Nom and Grimmand kinda could; but the Forestals, acknowledged badasses of the Land and merciless, Elohim-derived avengers of tree-butchers could not?

I recall a moksha POV where he remembers his slaying in the Illearth War, and how his spirit very nearly perished. Was it possible for a Forestal to almost, but not quite, slay one of their foes? That, well, stinks.

This sounds like a very good (and tough) question, and starkllr gives a good answer. I've always wondered if Caerroil Wildwood waited until after tormenting Fleshharrower before destroying the fragment of the Illearth Stone, and if so, if this prevented the Giant from containing Jehannum's spirit at the moment of bodily death, allowing moksha to escape because the Giant stilled clutched the Stone fragment. Maybe that's it.

As for turiya being completely destroyed vs samadhi just being rent: Clyme contained turiya until Branl had chopped him into many pieces with the krill, in contrast to Nom just holding Honninscrave and fatally squeezing him while Honninscrave contained samadhi. This still leaves the question: were Branl and Clyme more successful in utterly destroying a Raver because of employing dismemberment, or because Loric's krill was used? I think the use of the krill was what made the difference, just can't be sure.

It's worth remembering that when Brinn encouraged Covenant to pursue turiya, he also told him that the powers of the krill increased with use. I think this supports your view that the krill made the difference.

The Krill's original purpose was to fight non-corporeal beings, the Viles.

Also, the krill was designed by Loric to be a kind of simulated white gold--or to echo as nearly as possible the possibilities thereof. Wild magic was present in the Land; the blade was responding to that. Maybe a white-gold resonant krill being wielded with extreme passion on a willing Raver-vessel is just what it takes to do for one of these tenacious horrors.

In response to the idea of turiya being Foul's favorite, or the most important, or w/e... Do you think, then, that if he hadn't been disintegrated prior to "My Deeper Purpose," he would've been the one the Despiser used to try to accomplish his deeper purpose?

I put together a map of what the Ravers have done. It is almost complete.
s1085.photobucket.com/user/tj4242/media/Ravers.jpg.html

It's a good map. Thanks!

If the ravers really originated in the Sarangrave it's probably significant that the raver was torn apart and his pieces swallowed by that place.

starkllr wrote:I think that in both cases (Clyne and the Master), the Raver went into them first, and it was only their ability to hold the Raver there and not let it leave, that allowed for the Raver's destruction.

I'd assume that no Raver ever would have willingly possessed a tree, and certainly not one in any forest still protected by a Forestal.

Presumably, the original personality/spirit/souls of the Giants who were taken by the Ravers in the 1C were completely destroyed by the time Caerroil Wildwood and Lord Mhoram killed their bodies, and thus unable to hold the Raver there so it could be truly killed.

SRD says as much about the host of Satansfist. Yet he contradicts himself with Kinslaughterer by having his spirit conjured up to face Foamfollower at Foul's Creche. Unless you want to say that was the Raver there, too. I suppose it could have been, but I had thought that what the Colossus did to turiya and moksha put them out of commission for the rest of the 1st Chrons.

But then the ghost of Kinslaughterer appears again during the reenactment of the slaughter in TWL. Since the ghosts of the Unhomed are reenacting this among themselves, I wouldn't think the Raver would be playing the part of Kinslaughterer, unless it just couldn't resist, but surely Foul would have it doing more important work. I always wondered though, if that was the soul of the Giant whom the Raver possessed, why wasn't he also able to partake in the caamora?[/i]

I have often wondered about the Raver-ghost at Coercri. It isn't a Dead Raver, and if it is a Dead Giant, why doesn't he get his caamora?

Perhaps he isn't one of the Dead ... perhaps he is just an image created by the Dead so that they can enact enact their masque. Perhaps this is why he just fades away -- the Dead no longer need him.

A darker notion is that the Raver possessed him so completely that his Dead spirit is forever shaped the way the Raver made it.

I am including this map of Raver's names and exploits here so that Photobucket doesn't move it around again.