The Narrative of the Chrons

[PastorChris]

That Lord Foul's intent is harder to suss out in TLC makes a lot of sense. I _think_ that's because it is more complex with more moving parts. But I'll give it a stab.

"Did Foul need Linden there?" It may be that Foul believed Linden was the only person who could summon enough power to rouse the Worm with TC stuck up in the Arch, and thus her presence was necessary. Certainly Roger and Joan couldn't do it, as she was nuts and dying, and he wasn't a rightful wielder. Linden, however, had added capacity (Staff+WG+Krill).

It also occurs to me that in the litany of past attempts to break out of his prison, Foul's plans were far less complex, and all failures. Maybe he realized he needed a Grand Plan, which, by necessity, was going to have many moving parts. Roger, Joan, TC, Linden, the Masters, the Worm, and the She-Bane were all part of that.

(I choose to believe that Jeremiah's presence was actually a Creator thing, despite the lack of an ochre robe appearance.)

[TheFallen]

Peter, I'm also not at all sure what Kevin's Dirt was for, apart from delivering a reason for Linden's percipience being weakened and the overall health sense of the people of the Land being blinded. On the same note, I'm also unsure of the purpose of SWMNBN. apart from being there to represent Linden's final transfigurative challenge.

It's a good question - what did Foul cause, if only indirectly, and what did he merely take advantage of?

[peter]

It may be the case that a re-read with some fore-knowledge of where things are headed may help to bring some clarity to what is really going on . I think the time for this to be done may be upon me [apart from the fact that my brother in law has nabbed the first two books in the series and not returned them, the bastard!] Still one thing is an absolute certainty here - If I can't get a handle on the story at the narrative level I'm certainly never going to manage it at the deeper levels it apparently mines.

[Vraith]

Peter, I'm also not at all sure what Kevin's Dirt was for, apart from delivering a reason for Linden's percipience being weakened and the overall health sense of the people of the Land being blinded. On the same note, I'm also unsure of the purpose of SWMNBN. apart from being there to represent Linden's final transfigurative challenge.

The Dirt did far more than that...the primary being that it resisted and limited almost all expressions of Earthpower. With the Staff, Linden could relatively easily overcome the blocking of percipience/health sense...so folk could "see,"...but not the limit on what she could DO about it.
As for SHE, in the tiniest nutshell I can manage, I think:
Between Creation and Destruction, SHE is what allows things to mean something.

[Zarathustra]

How did limiting Earthpower affect the plot? Or Linden's choices? Sure, it put her in greater danger in that one scene in FR where they first (finally!) realize that KD limits EP: it made the skurj fight harder. That gave Liand an excuse to use his orcrest and prove that he had a purpose (which was just a reader fake-out; Liand dies pointlessly). But what major choices would have been different if Linden had just a bit more EP? When they escaped KD in the lower lands, was their situation significantly different?

I admit, this could be an oversight on my part; maybe I'm forgetting a crucial plot detail. But it doesn't seem like a major plot point to me, like the Sunbane was for the 2nd Chrons. Nothing that Linden wanted to do would have been possible with a bit more EP, nor did having a little less make anything impossible.

[Vraith]

How did limiting Earthpower affect the plot? Or Linden's choices? Sure, it put her in greater danger in that one scene in FR where they first (finally!) realize that KD limits EP: it made the skurj fight harder. That gave Liand an excuse to use his orcrest and prove that he had a purpose (which was just a reader fake-out; Liand dies pointlessly). But what major choices would have been different if Linden had just a bit more EP?

I COULD be mistaken, and I'd have to hunt the texts to find it all [not really my preferred mode], but the limits on EP are mentioned a LOT.
I don't know how things might have worked differently with a little more EP. [heh...you either ]...but Linden surely felt the lack/limit.
And it isn't ONLY Linden-limiting that's the problem. [though it does push her towards WG] All the people of the Land have been limited by it for a long time. Not as blatant/obvious as Sunbane...that doesn't mean less impact/effect.

And do we know it is only "a bit more EP?"...it seems to me it's more than a little that's blocked.

[wayfriend]

Certainly the Masters could not have succeeded at eradicating all knowledge of Earthpower without Kevin's Dirt.

Linden would have been able to defeat the first skurj she encountered, if it were not for the Dirt. It would not have required Giants to combat them. Liand would not have had an opportunity to use his orcrest.

I think the important thing is that, when you have a book series that ends with someone acquiring the ultimate power, in the next book series you need to find a way to "de-ultimatize" the power - give it new limitations. Else there is no viable plot - you wonder why the protagonist just doesn't use his/her ultimate power and complete the quest on page four. The drawback is, of course, that you feel like the protagonist got cheated out of their ultimate power, which they worked so hard to get.

Even Tolkien had to add drawbacks to the One Ring. Otherwise Frodo could have waltzed invisible right up to Mt. Doom.

So Linden gets ring-blocked and Staff-blocked. What could menace her if not for that? What would prevent her from sweeping the skurj off of Mt. Thunder, waltzing into Kiril Threndor, and tickling Foul's feet until he coughs up Jeremiah, if she is just as powerful as when she eradicated the Sunbane?

[lurch]

Yes, the need for conflict at the plot level is evident for something like Kevin's Dirt. The Last Chrons Begins with the Land under its influence,,so ,,yes,,everything is influenced until location is found or Time is found that KD is not.

On the metaphoric level something of Kevins Dirt is absolutely required. Self Defeating needs a representative in the Land. Imho, KD serves the purpose. As already noted,,the sly of it is in the subtlety, in its indirect effect, its creeping effect by stages. Its slow assuage (?) I find the most terrifying. As we see and already stated..It turned the good folks of the Land into ignorant depressed, repressed shells of what they once were. This was accomplished over Time. Scarey stuff.

Self Defeating habits come to us in all sorts of guises . Excessive booze and drugs certainly cast a pall over ones life, but there is also the way we may perceive and think. Self pity and loathing, depression, etc etc etc, can have their way with any body's " self" just as surreptitiously as K's Dirt dimmed the life of the Land. And just as bad is all the way folks around us enable the self defeating attitude . Linden allowing Joan to have the Ring,,mite be seen as an enabling Joan to pursue her path of insanity. The Masters are a good metaphor for enablers of Self Defeatism. Yet the Masters insisted that they were correct and only Brinn called them out for the small minded cheap skates that they became. Eventually Stave saw the flaw in their thinking and perceiving also, but look what it cost him. Ouch.

There has to be conflict , tension. Kevin's Dirt sets a pall on the Land that is ..un nerving. Not the Worm, nor Lurker..but thinner and finer than a fog..very subtle,,a great metaphor for how we perceive and think.

[lurch]

...and Pete..thematic motifs may include but are not limited to what I've been bringing up in most discussions:..the " flawed individual' coping with reality..self identity as in..Who Am I or even, What Am I..how do we define ourselves?..Linden as Love, Thomas as Hope and Jerry as the..maturing to Compassion,,as they are center to answering the previous questions,,What is real and what is illusion in what we call reality..in what we call fantasy? What and How is it to be a Human Being?

Again, the author wants Fantasy to be taken serious and respected for Art, hold a rightful place in the Art of Literature. I guess modern man has forgotten that Dante Aligheirii's fanciful master piece was also a Dream Work with plenty of alludes to conditions and persons of the Times. Point being, a 14th century " Western Classic of Literature" was just as much a Fantasy as anything Donaldson ever wrote. Shakespeare was no stranger to " fantasy" either, Midsummer's Night Dream anybody? I could go on,Gulliver's Travels, Lewis Carrol?..So, fantasy to be taken as respected Literature, suggests the writing level that the Lester Del Reys of the world were pushing on the public had no intention of rising to a higher level. Donaldson sensed the same and had to part ways with Lester and company.

Now..in America we have inexpensive " community colleges" where a person can take courses like English 101 , 102, 201 and 202,,or however they may be identified. Those courses as " core" courses for most liberal arts degree, are where thematic detection may be eventually taught. I do not know how it works in Europe and i would hope a lot of those courses are taught in " high school"...My point is, there is nothing " special" about thematic detection, understanding allegory, grasping the history of how Man perceives itself thru Art over Time, etc etc. These courses are available at a very pedestrian level.

IMHO, Donaldson grasps the " Art" ring with TCoTC,,His other works do as well but they are not the subject. Donaldson does thru metaphor , allegory, parable, analogy, etc, make comment on the eternal struggles of being Human,,on what it is to be a Human Being,,on what is our Humanity. These are the questions that ART strives to answer. There is Craft at work and a knowledge of that begins the appreciation.Again, assigning characters to concepts begins the perception and appreciation of the Art. Its my opinion Donaldson's TCoTC is NOT a good place to start. Its All metaphor, allegory, parable, figurative. If it was like a lot of the hack and slash Fantasy genre, then Donaldson would have had no reason to ever leave Lester Del Rey. Donaldson's Land tends to be a convoluted mirror of " reality". Things are reverse and upside down inside out exaggerated reflections on a Man's troubles therefore Mankinds troubles,,where abstracts like feelings become tangible as a brick. Not the easiest water to learn how to swim in. I would expect nothing less from a Graduate Student in English Literature tho.

I'm not buying the .." I'll never grasp the higher meaning" line either. Are you serious??..After reading all of this work,,you are letting Lord Foul have his way with you with this..self pitying self defeating ,,oh oooh, deeper meaning what could it be?" Uh uhh..ain't buying it..You are here. You have no excuses. You have Google, Bing, whatever, Time to start making them pay off. Use them. Deeper meaning?..no, Thats the wrong way to look at it..A better way is..an expanded understanding,,like a thrown rock in a pond.. the ripple expands out...so does our understanding. Deeper has connotations of Levels and that leads to hierarchy, which gives to better than or smarter than. Nope, that ain't it at all. Its out there and understandable by any who wish to grasp it. There is fun and enjoyment and pleasure that comes along with understanding. You just have to kno,,only you can do it. Nobody else can do it for you,,Real Knowledge.

[Zarathustra]

If I remember correctly ... Kevin's Dirt was not in effect in the lower lands, especially after Kasty left Mt Thunder and entered the Fain. And yet Linden still was not unstoppable in the battle against skurj at Mt Thunder's back door. There is no evidence that Linden would be "unstoppable" in the absence of Kevin's Dirt. In fact, the old Lords had much more lore and ability wield EP, and they weren't unstoppable, either. While KD might have been necessary to "set the scene" (i.e. making the Master's job of hiding people's heritage possible), this was not really part of the plot moving forward. It basically only affected Liand, as far as the story goes.

And that's fine, if you like it that way. Not everything has to be a major part of the plot. But it's just a fact that KD had no role to play in the character arc of our three main protagonists. A minor hinderance isn't anything at all like "she will heal us all in the end." Linden's entire purpose in the 2nd Chrons was to heal the Land of Sunbane. There is simply no parallel to this major plot point in the LC, much less with KD. In the LC, Linden did not heal the Land. She did just the opposite ... a development which had nothing to do with KD.

[wayfriend]

Indeed.

In Salva Gildenbourne, one alone had overwhelmed her in spite of her Staff. And during the company’s flight toward Andelain, Kastenessen’s monsters had been too strong for her. She could not have fought them in the Lost Deep.

Since then, everything had changed. Kevin’s Dirt was gone. Kastenessen’s passing into the fane of the Elohim had struck manacles from her wrists. While Covenant still believed that the lurker might heed him, she meant to guard his back.

“Melenkurion abatha,” she promised softly while the skurj arose from the riverbank and swept toward her. “Duroc minas mill. Harad khabaal.”

[...] “Enough, Linden. The monster is slain. Now you must conserve your magicks. Where one skurj arrives, others will surely come.”

It's telling that it now takes hordes of skurj and Sandgorgons combined to threaten them.

But then ...

Linden believed that she could stop them—

—if they came no more than one or two at a time.

[...] And she did not have time to drop her Staff so that she could invoke her ring. Nor did she have the krill or any other catalyst which might ease her access to wild magic. Nor had she learned how to summon silver havoc instantly without aid. If she could have cleared her mind, concentrated her health-sense—

She was already foundering. Any pause now might be her last mistake.

[...] She was failing. For all her frenzy and desperation, her exertions did not suffice. The monsters far outnumbered her abilities. Even if she had been galvanized by the EarthBlood, as she had been under Melenkurion Skyweir, she would have been no match for the host surging against her.

There are other restrictions on Linden and Covenant's power that Donaldson employs from time to time. In this case, there are too many to attend to. At other times, he or she cannot strike without hurting their allies. Often Covenant lacks percipience or is even too numb. And there remains the issue of the antipathy of the Staff and the ring.

All of these things are ways that Donaldson explains why they still have enemies that can threaten them, despite their accumulating powers.

[Zarathustra]

There are other restrictions on Linden and Covenant's power that Donaldson employs from time to time. In this case, there are too many to attend to. At other times, he or she cannot strike without hurting their allies. Often Covenant lacks percipience or is even too numb. And there remains the issue of the antipathy of the Staff and the ring.

All of these things are ways that Donaldson explains why they still have enemies that can threaten them, despite their accumulating powers.

Yes, which makes KD simply redudant ... yet another way (among many) to limit her power. I think that makes my point: KD as a limiting factor on EP was a minor plot point in the form of a relatively minor obstacle, for one time in one battle in roughly 2400 pages (four books). Donaldson has said he doesn't invent things he doesn't need, so either we're missing something, or he's writing a more extravagent and less necessary narrative in his later years. And that's another way of saying that the plot doesn't hold together with a character-driven necessity like it used to. Linden doesn't *need* to solve KD as a way to symbolize healing herself, or coming into an authentic relationship with her choice to be a doctor (pro-life instead of anti-death). In fact, solving KD was simply a side-effect of Jer giving Kasty a place to hide, and not intended by any of the characters.

[peter]

Short on time so this needs to be quick but firstly - is Kevins Dirt part of Fouls doing then? Is he [rather than Kasty, who for some reason I had as it's progenitor] behind this power dulling smog. And Kasty - is Foul behind Kasty too? [Was probably told this stuff but forgot it in the maelstom of TLD].

Re the Haruchai point; this isn't the way I see it at all. Sure Brinn railed them out. But they were mad, not ashamed about it; in the name of the Masters they prove their worth by going beyond anything that even Brinn ever achieved - they unmake a Raver for God'sake. After this feat they need answer to no-one for thier actions and as Branl says as he rises from the waters having done this, even TC must be content. Sure, they made mistakes but 'small minded cheapskates'? No - up with this I will not put

[Times up alas!]

[lurch]

Pete..see, you missed the focus of Brinns words. he blamed the Master for not sharing the knowledge of the Land, with the folks. Not sharing all the wonderful works in Revelstone,,not keeping an open link with the Giants etc etc..They were greedy with their knowledge and with held it from the people of the Land ..That was the Peoples rightful Heritage...and it was with held by the Masters who thought they knew better..A great metaphor right there,,great in its sadness. .

And Clyme sacrificing himself...sorry,,you need to read that passage again. Branl is alone,,as alone as a leper. is how Branl is perceived by TC.. Even Branl says they couldn't think of any other choices.. Thats the point about the Haruchai all along..They are not the smartest ones..They ARE choice challenged..they aren't very ..creative. Determining Choice is not their forte. They are physical, not mental. They took a oath that severely restricts any deviation thus restricts choices in interpreting and execution. Their Oath restricts them from the freedom of creating and executing choices. They are encumbered by their Oath.. The illusion is that because of their lack of ability to create and determine choices,,this some how makes them Honorable...No it doesn't..It makes them alone...alone as a leper. The Haruchai are Flawed. Their " flaw" exacted a high cost on the people of the Land. The Masters with held the Heritage of the Land from the People...They killed a Raver..yea..well Jerry put a Raver in a graveyard and then let him free..and lived to tell about it..Haa..sorry Clyme and Branl were patsies used to demonstrate how wrong the harauchai had become..Seems possible Kevin's Dirt just may have effected them after all.

[peter]

Well I began rereading The Last Dark last night so will reserve furthur comment on this until it's all abit fresher in my mind - but that is not to say that I'm not getting what your saying Lurch. The H are so much my favorite charachters of the entire Chrons that I have ever struggled to see any fault in them and yes, have maybe 'spun' their actions to suit this.

One short comment on something that has come out in the first 30 or so pages [and that I never picked up on before] is how much at pains SRD now seems to be in pointing out the metaphorical turn the Chrons has taken. Two or three times the metaphor aspect has actually been baldly stated in the text, certainly in respect to the Elohim. This, I think, is going to be an interesting re-read.

[wayfriend]

BTW, Brinn Guardian appeared before they went to the Sarangrave and slew the Raver. Indeed, he provided them with the means to get there in time.

[lurch]

Pete,,careful,,I got the first chapter on the Dissect effort,,and yes,,the author actually makes the metaphor the subject of conversation ,,but,,I don't want to spoil the dissect toooooo much....So no further on that segment you refer to except to say, from my point of view,,i can relate and its pretty funny..

Another stunt by the haruchai that leaves me questioning their mental agility..is Stave climbing back up the cliff to break loose the malachite..I mean..again..their nature of Choice Challenged seems glaringly obvious. All the babble about sacrificing himself and needing to do something to be worthy etc etc, is just poor excuse for not creating another solution...oh schitt..I just realized another dimension of the authors riddle of the malachite and can see how Stave,,while still at fault for taking risks that would not allow him to protect Jerry if harm came,,but how Stave was perhaps manipulated by the " mysterious " quality of the malachite. I see Nobody else has figured the riddle yet,,
Anyway, There is also a rather stupid moment when..now get this...Linden and Thomas just married and the ur-Mahrtiir has the Honeymoon Suite all prepared and then Branl inserts himself at the last moment...." hey! you didn't complete the camoraa Thomas Covenant..YOU didn't give the Giants what you said you would!..." Talk about clueless! Its an oh god , cringe worthy moment..embarrassed for the dude. This leads me to contemplate just how many human emotions did Donaldson strive to get us, the reader, in touch with.

[Savor Dam]

The Haruchai who have wandered down to the Land (as opposed to those who remain hot-blooded in the frigid mountain fastness) have ever been out of touch with the corporeal passions.

Give Branl a break. How long has he been Humbled?

[peter]

Have just read the Brinn episode again and must point out that it is he, Brinn who has changed and not the H. He refers to TC as friend, he smiles, he displays concern and emotion regarding his reunion with the Ur-Lord. Yes he expresses contempt for the H, for what [*he says*] they have become and says they were not ever thus - But is he actually correct. TC has his doubts [he tells Brinn he is being too hard on them; Branl and Clyme clearly do not think so - and I'm not sure that either do I. This is a difficult one to put forward but I'm going to try anyway - Has anyone actually given thought to the idea of 'the unreliable narrator' in the middle of all this. I have seen a thread on 'The Story Teller' that I just haven't had time to get to yet - and the idea had occured to me to post on this theme over there, but the above H dilema seems to me an appropriate place to introduce it. Can we actually trust the narrator any more? The H are being presented in the worst possible light and yes they f***ed up over the Master thing - but individually they remain true to the Haruchie code way more than Brinn or [it pains me to say] even Stave ever come close to. Is it not the narrator who has changed [deliberately on SRD's point or otherwise] rather than the Haruchai. Are we not being invited to see them differently by a story teller whose position has shifted in the telling of the tale?

[lurch]

how long has he been humbled?...Too Long..

The code is the whole point..its an encumbrance. Their severity to it leads to the stingy mentality of not sharing the Land's Beauty with the People of the land,,not keeping open relations with the Giants..etc..Their code is the way they think and perceive and it sucks. It leaves them with the inability to imagine and create alternative solutions to problems besides hack and slash,,besides killing one of your own, in order to kill an enemy..I mean..the mid east is full of suicide bombers who gladly kill themselves in order to kill a few of the enemy..right now..so the Haruchai..well Branl and Clyme anyway ,are Donaldsons equivalent imho.

Yea, I'm coming down hard on Branl Clyme and the rest of the Humbled and Masters. IMHO they deserve what I think Donaldson is doing to them. Yet, its true that even Branl soon begins to change his outlook. He takes on a weapon ,,if that can be seen as a change for the better.