Fantastic Four reboot: Epic Fail 2.0?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I wonder if Marvel could ever get big enough to buy Fox. That's about the only way I can see this thing getting fixed.

Maybe Marvel could go to Fox after a few years, say "The marketability of the franchise can't get any worse, and this is still our property at a fundamental level, and we are interested in its long term health. Let's partner on these movies, you help with the financing and distribution and we'll take creative control. We can fold them into the MCU. If it works over several movies you agree to be the permanent silent partner on the franchise. If not, you can take the rights back."

[I'm Murrin]

That's pretty close to what they've done with Spider-Man. Fantastic Four has performed much worse than Spider-Man, and they don't seem to be going for it. I think maybe they're not as interested in the franchise.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Isn't FF pretty central to some of the big Marvel storylines though? Things like Secret Wars, etc. I don't know (never followed them), I'm asking.

[I'm Murrin]

They've already built the MCU without them, just like they have without mutants. They can manage.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The Fantastic Four might not be the first Marvel product--Sarge can probably tell us which one was the first--but it was the first big Marvel product all the way back in 1961. It marked the end of the crime/suspense books of the 1950s and a return to superhero comic books (even though Batman, Superman, and Captain Marvel--the Shazam one--never died).

Doesn't Disney own Marvel Studios? Disney can afford to buy out Fox if they wanted to. If Marvel wanted the FF they would get them. Right now it is too soon but I suspect such a deal might happen next year after the movie hits the rental/resale stores and the second wave of negative buzz dies down.

[I'm Murrin]

They're already planning a sequel to the latest Fantastic Four, you know.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

They're already planning a sequel to the latest Fantastic Four, you know.

Why? Just to piss Marvel off?

[sgt.null]

They're already planning a sequel to the latest Fantastic Four, you know.

Why? Just to piss Marvel off?

to keep the copyright I am guessing.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Probably, but why keep the rights on a money-losing franchise? Surely the rights can't be worth all that much any more..... Let's see...IMDB says that the estimated budget was $120M and that the movie has grossed just under $50M domestic so far. Who loses $60M and decides "you know what? we should make another one"?

[I'm Murrin]

What do the international sales look like? China can carry US flops on its own sometimes.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Very true. IMDB was citing only domestic numbers; I haven't looked elsewhere to see what international numbers might be.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

The Fantastic Four might not be the first Marvel product--Sarge can probably tell us which one was the first--but it was the first big Marvel product all the way back in 1961. It marked the end of the crime/suspense books of the 1950s and a return to superhero comic books (even though Batman, Superman, and Captain Marvel--the Shazam one--never died).

Doesn't Disney own Marvel Studios? Disney can afford to buy out Fox if they wanted to. If Marvel wanted the FF they would get them. Right now it is too soon but I suspect such a deal might happen next year after the movie hits the rental/resale stores and the second wave of negative buzz dies down.

The holy grail is obviously every Marvel character inside the MCU. Avengers vs. X-Men, Secret Wars, Hulk vs. Wolverine, etc., etc.

[sgt.null]

and since you asked - a brief recap of Marvel Comics.

Marvel began as Timely in 1939. in October they print Marvel Comics #1 - it features the (android) Human Torch and Prince Namor, the Sub-Mariner. Captain America is first published in 1941. these big three are the foundation of Marvel comics.

a bunch more heroes are created. this is known as the Golden Age.

then the war ends, sales go down, 1954 comes along Dr. Werthem publishes Seduction of the Innocent, comics are blamed for all sorts of things. sales go down more. Marvel about to go bust when...

Stan Lee publishes a host of titles, starting with Fantastic Four #1 (Nov 1961) - sales take off. we get Iron Man, the Hulk, Dr. Strange, the Avengers, the X-Men, Thor and many more. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby (and to some extent Steve Ditko) revive the might Marvel banner. Excelsior!

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Thanks for that history lesson Sarge. I had thought that FF were pretty important to the Marvel universe, but I've never really followed them.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

1954 comes along Dr. Werthem publishes Seduction of the Innocent

Is that book in print any more? The guy who ran the store in Longview had a copy back in the mid-80s. He had it on display near the front but it wasn't for sale--I think he liked the irony.

[Savor Dam]

What would Dr. Werthem have said about video games?

I keep telling Dam-et that Pong was the apogee of video game design and it all went downhill from there. I really don't think I've convinced him...

[sgt.null]

Doc - the Fantastic Four are huge. the run against the DC model of heroes, the perfect heroes without fail. they are a family, they have conflict, two members fall in love and get married. with Ben Grimm (the Thing) you have pathos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Man..._This_Monster!

that is a link to Fantastic Four #51 - an amazing book for it's time. you should read it, then get any Superman book from the same time to fully see the contrast.

then check out the other Marvel titles at the time. Peter Parker feels responsible for his uncle's death. Dr. Strange has to make up for being a selfish bastard all his life. the Hulk is a tortured soul. Thor's alter ego is a cripple. Iron Man is frail man in his real life. check out the Silver Surfer when he betrays Galactus. that is pure pathos.

and how does Reed Richards first defeat Galactus? with the Ultimate Nullifer, I weapon capable of utter destruction. how heroic is that in the end? and I didn't even get around to the X-Men.

Hashi - Amazon has the Wertham book for $40.00.

[aTOMiC]

A copy of this deserves to be in this thread too...

In its defense, the first Fantastic Four movie was actually pretty good. Its worst flaw was Jessica Alba as Susan Storm--they really should have put someone else in that role--but all the other casting choices were well done. Its second-worst flaw was Doom's dialogue--the way in which Doom speaks in the comic books was not correctly captured in the film. Other than that it worked.

If we were engaged in a formal debate on the subject we'd have to agree to disagree. I did think Reed and Johnny were effectively portrayed and the voice of Michael Chiklis was perfect for The Thing and he did a good job as Ben however the relatively small, man-in-a-suit Thing didn't work for me.

I very much agree about Jessica Alba's portrayal of Susan Storm. Why Alba was chosen for the role is evidenced in her appearance though she never matched my vision of the character. Unfortunately she was never able to give the character much depth or believably and her screen chemistry with Ioan Graffudd was sketchy at best.

I had a very strong reaction to the portrayal of Dr. Doom (who has always been a favorite villain of mine). The Dr. Doom I enjoy the most is the Victor Von Doom presented in the classic Kirby drawn comics. The common elements between film and book are that Doom is portrayed as a intelligent, rich and powerful man however that's pretty much where the comparison ends. I guess the notion of an Eastern European despot monarch, genius level scientist and clinical egomaniac was just too much for the film's creative team to handle. Doom's superior, royal, bearing is at the heart of the character, almost Shakespearean to the level of the Asgardians of the MCU. Take that away and you have the guy from Nip Tuck prancing around chewing scenery ineffectively. Doom is also above getting his hands dirty in a physical battle while employing deception, henchmen and fascinating traps to deal with the FF but ultimately, after all other measures fail, he will fight them in person. I strongly disliked having Doom come into his power with the rest of the FF. I much prefer the idea that Doom has been Doom for many years before the FF pose a threat to his plans. Hell, the Roger Corman FF film does at least a recognizable job with Doom.



I think the first FF film was the most enjoyable of the three however I view it as a solid swing and a miss. Film makers CAN make a Fantastic Four film but thus far they have chosen not to. They seem to be operating under the misguided notion that they should do something "different" with the property which misses the point. If Josh Trank's FF film had been about original characters like his film Chronicle it would have probably been at least somewhat enjoyable. You just can't make an FF film without making it an FF film so don't try, please. Suppose for a moment that you tried to make a James Bond film with no cars, no gadgets, no MI6, no theme song and set the plot entirely a sleepy southern town in the heart of the Ozarks and everyone, including Jimmy Bond sports thick southern accents? It might work great as an original piece but James Bond fans expect something fairly specific and if they don't get it they flip out, which they should.

Why is this so freaking hard? Just do it right for heaven's sake.

I expect that only Marvel/Disney have the talent, vision and resources to create a proper film but I also believe they are far from perfect and might just botch the job a 4th time.

IMHO.

[aTOMiC]

I re-watched FF and discovered that I enjoyed it more by thinking of it as Chronicle 2 with a few borrowed elements from FF. Almost nothing about the film works as an FF film but as a generic 2 hour Outer Limits episode its not terrible. Remove the FF elements and it may have actually been viewed as a passable sequel to Josh Trank's previous film.

[wayfriend]

What if you think of it as a story of Doctor Doom's valiant efforts to save the world, only to be thwarted again and again by four weird people?