Male escorts and female sexuality

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Ananda
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Post by Ananda »

Fist and Faith wrote:Ananda, the point isn't that women don't have desires. The point is that there's no need for them to pay to satisfy those desires. You - you personally, and nearly every woman - can have sex as often as you want, for free, with no string attached. Why on earth would you bother giving money to someone to do what you can do for free? If I bottle air, will you give me money for it so you can breath it?
Fist,

First of all, I don't think it is true that all women can just go have sex all they want as much as they want just because they want it. Well, not with anyone they'd want to do it with, probably. And also, as Junksista points out, you are possible to get a bad shag.

Secondly, I think these women are buying a fantasy. Not sure if you read the story, but these men cost A LOT. They are not being picked up on a street or in some shitty hotel. The men in the story are providing a high priced service to women with a fair bit of money. They are also experienced lovers paid to be attentive rather than a slightly drunk, two minute fuck. The need they are fulfilling isn't just 'keeping the beaver pleased' as Softy says, but the whole sensual experience. That is why they pay.
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Post by Dondarion »

Univeral Truths in Morality? As a matter of fact, yes....case in point: last I knrew, "thou shalt not kill/steal" are still valid. Or is that somehow "forcing" someone against his will if we dare to arrest such a culprit. There are universal truths in morality. Some force (law) is right, when the action is against the public (and yes, moral) good, not by my standard, by the universal standard of human dignity and respect for the person. I will never see how engaging in the practice of paid sex does not denigrade and devalue the human spirit. But somehow we twist that into being labeled an absolutist. Okay, but I know that's not what it is. I am arguing for a belief, and I welcome others to share their beliefs. That doesn't mean that a belief in certain universal truths means I don't welcome a counter-argument.

As for love, I disagree love hates sacrifice. True love IS sacrifice. Eros is infatuation and gratification. Gratification hates sacrifice. Agape is a higher love, more meaningful, why we smile at old folks holding hands, cuz we know what they have been through together, the good, the bad, the sacrifice, and they are still together. And we want that for ourselves.

A person is more than his/her sex glands. I love sex too! Sex is beyond great. But it is not who we are. It is a fleeting feeling, great as it is, and a fantastic sharing between people in love, the most fantastic form of sharing physically possible. And that feeling is still a great feeling when those two people are just partners in the act and nothing more, but it does not approach its true potential unless there is real love. Honestly, we all know this to be true, deep down. Either way, in the end, we are still left with our real issues amd struggles afterwards, and only the sharing and commitment from real relationships will last, and help us grow as people. Prostitution is a fantasy played by actors who could care less about each other, a scam. At least with Ananda's experience, she had some feelings for her partner, he was her friend. They valued each other's company. Somehow, I doubt payment was involved.

And legalized prostitution for retarded people, disabled people, socially anxious people, erc. Really? That's the message we want to send to these challenged people (excepting out the fetishly challenged)? "Here's what we've done for you, we provided an avenue for some carnal knowledge that you couldn't otherwise ever get, so have fun with that and have a nice life." These people don't need a sex fix-up, they need true human interaction from people who care for them. Their presence in our lives is an opportunity for us to show charity, not to be pimps.

Whay should any of us make sex for money illegal? Beyond the moral argument, let's at least agree on this answer....AIDS, STDs, etc. Funny how none of that comes up in these debates. I guess that's somebody else's problem. That's not part of the moral question, just a risk the person willingly takes, and we shouldn't presume to tell him/her it's wrong. Gee, those diseases don't effect too many people, do they?
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Fist and Faith wrote: You - you personally, and nearly every woman - can have sex as often as you want, for free, with no string attached. Why on earth would you bother giving money to someone to do what you can do for free?
Wow. Just...wow. Considering how much of a struggle it is to get even an eye contact with non-drunk eligible men as they crouch over their smartphones in nightclubs, noses glued to Facebook apps and not even noticing when someone sits in the same table. :roll:

I think there'd be a good demand for male escorts if the lonely locals could afford it. Then again, I've had a theory for a while now as to why Croatia's such a popular destination among 40+ females.
There's a song about a similar phenomenon already from a couple of decades back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnWL5pPPzGo
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Post by Fist and Faith »

The point is no-strings, free sex. Let's you and me walk down a street. I'll ask every unaccompanied woman if she'll have sex with me, and you ask every unaccompanied man if he'll have sex with you. We'll see how many times I get slapped or the police called, and compare it to how many times you get laid. Certainly, in this day of diseases, that's a deadly game. But it would work for you if you wanted it. You just don't want that. Dondarion is right about it being better with the full emotional attachment. On the whole, guys are still pretty darned eager to get it without that attachment, which is why there are so many prostitutes and pimps out there. On the whole, women are not, which is why not too many men make a living this way. You think there aren't millions of men who would be thrilled beyond description to get paid for sex??? Ananda's article is about a relatively rare thing. Male prostitutes for women could have been a part of humanity all along, just as the typical prostitute has been. Yet, it hasn't been like that. The market is not there.

This is really about a more elaborate fantasy? That's fine. It takes a little more effort. I'm pretty certain the guys of the world are willing to play the role the article is talking about if they know there's sex waiting at the end of the night. The male prostitutes know that's what's going on. Why not play that scenario with a guy who isn't charging you money? The guy in the nightclub isn't making eye contact? Go say Hi to him.
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Post by michaelm »

I don't often make appearances in this part of the forum, and generally don't get involved in discussion about politics, religion or morals for the most part as they're all conversational minefields with little in the way of fact from people with very strong opinions.

The point about whether one would like to see a close family member do such a thing is a strong one - there are so many sociological negatives placed on certain acts, that it's hard to disentangle them from any kind of objective viewpoint. There is of course the very real exploitation aspect of prostitution, but that is not the case for all sex workers.

While I had a less restrained approach to sex when I was younger, I now feel very comfortable with monogamy, and don't feel any desire for multiple partners. My personal opinion is that I would not like to be involved and would not like to see close family involved. There's probably not enough space on the page here to go into all of the reasons, but that is my opinion.

On the other hand, I have no moral objection to anyone else getting involved from either side of the transaction as long as there is willingness on both sides.
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Fist and Faith wrote: The guy in the nightclub isn't making eye contact? Go say Hi to him.
:lol: You think that hasn't been attempted?
"Uh...what? Hi. I need to answer this. *goes back to Facebook*"
Not too long ago I was sharing experiences about this phenomenon with some girls. So please don't tell us we can just snap our fingers and get sex.

I said before I'm not interested in one-night flings one bit nor could I find contentment in paid fantasies; I'm partially referring to a deeper and more complex problem within the society where there's an imbalance of singles and also an imbalance of sexual activity within many existing relationships which creates certain demands. I doubt the ones that go abroad for male escort services get lasting contentment from it either. Now I'll drop out of this argument; no energy for this sort.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

You haven't tried it. Go up to guys and ask for sex. You will get it. You think the millions of guys out there paying prostitutes won't have sex for free instead?

No, you will not get lasting contentment, and the women who go to these male prostitutes don't, either. They may think they will, thinking that the whole fantasy Ananda speaks of is enough. But it's not. It's a mistake to think it will be. I'd bet many women would try it a few times, then be sad that they're still alone the next night, and the next... Yes, by and large, men and women both want the lasting contentment that sex can be a wonderful, necessary part of. But men are much more in need of only the act itself than women are. How else can we explain the fact that female prostitutes for men have always been a much much much bigger business than male prostitutes for women? I think it was Billy Crystal who said, "Women need a reason to have sex. Men just need a place." The women who want the seduction and fantasy that these guys provide will, ultimately, find it unfulfilling. It will not be better than anonymous, meaningless sex. Which you can get for free anyway.
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Post by Vraith »

Dondarion wrote:Univeral Truths in Morality? As a matter of fact, yes....case in point: last I knrew, "thou shalt not kill/steal" are still valid.
Killing isn't necessarily immoral OR illegal. [Generally speaking]
Murder, OTOH, generally is...so I'll assume that's what you meant.
[even given that what one place thinks is murder, another might call justice..but that gets tangled in a bunch of other things, so leave it]
Murder, pretty much by definition, always involves involuntary, demonstrable, permanent, lethal harm to at least one person. [I say "pretty much" cuz there are things we sometimes call "murder" or something close too it, even if the dead party consented].
Does prostitution cause that [or any] kind of harm? You'd have to show that. And beyond that, other considerations:
Does making it illegal lessen the harm? [to the individuals in question AND society as a whole]. And/or punish the guilty parties equitably? It seems the answer to the first is probably no, it just creates more criminals, and the answer to the second is no, not at all, not even close.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Fist and Faith wrote:Ananda, the point isn't that women don't have desires. The point is that there's no need for them to pay to satisfy those desires. You - you personally, and nearly every woman - can have sex as often as you want, for free, with no string attached. Why on earth would you bother giving money to someone to do what you can do for free? If I bottle air, will you give me money for it so you can breath it?
Why would you buy a book when you can get as many free ones as you like on Kindle?

(Note: this analogy fails because there's currently a lack of places where you can read reviews of a worker's services.)
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Dondarion wrote:Univeral Truths in Morality? As a matter of fact, yes....case in point: last I knrew, "thou shalt not kill/steal" are still valid.
No ownership is also a valid moral stance. Meaning it's only in cultures that practice the immoral concept of ownership that there's such a thing as stealing. The Gods Must Be Crazy, eh?
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Post by ussusimiel »

I understand some of where Dondarion is coming from. Sex is one of the most important human behaviours because of its centrality to fertility and relationships. In many ways human society is based on sex. So, protecting and conserving the value of sex is a very understandable and necessary action.

However, the flip side of the importance of sex is that some people are left out of this essentially human activity. Because of the nature of relationships they cannot be forced or bought and so not everyone ends up in a sustained one. Some may never have one. Are these people, for the sake of maintaining the purity of the sexual act, to be forever excluded from it? (There can also be a power element present in sex, so I think that some people who want sex and can pay for it will do so, no matter what society or the law says.)

Personally, I believe that the commodification of sex devalues it (even as a monetary value is placed on it). And while I also believe that casual sex is less rich than sex in a committed loving relationship, I recognise that sex serves more than one function in our contemporary society. Most sex today is recreational, even in committed relationships, and, IMO, this in itself does not devalue either sex or the human spirit.

Sex that is paid for, is, to my way of seeing things, categorically different. It may depend on the circumstances, but my guess is that being involved in selling sex over a long period of time would be detrimental to most people. When a human act that intimate is mediated (in this case through money) then, I feel, something essential is lost or eroded. Whether this has long-term consequences for the individual or society more generally is a much more difficult question to answer.

The ideal situation would be to live in a society where everyone's relationship and sexual needs were fully met (without having to pay for them). Until such a society comes into being, I believe that we should work towards providing people with the necessary personal resources, so that they more able to handle their individual circumstances in such a way as to meet their needs. (That'd make me one of those Leftie Liberals then, wouldn't it? :lol:)

u.
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Post by Frostheart Grueburn »

Frostheart Grueburn wrote: There's a song about a similar phenomenon already from a couple of decades back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnWL5pPPzGo
As an afterthought, I'll clarify this, because it seems it wasn't understood. I didn't post the link just to let people hear Barbarian, but to make a point about a very real phenomenon which hasn't ceased. Juha Vainio performed songs that often contained societal satire; this was about a company selling cheap travels to Spain sometime in the seventies/eighties, and how women went there just to purchase certain services.
I don't have to agree with it, but obviously "Manolito" could offer something better than the available "free sex", in the form of a short-term fantasy providing no lasting bliss.
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Post by Vraith »

ussusimiel wrote:I understand some of where Dondarion is coming from. Sex is one of the most important human behaviours because of its centrality to fertility and relationships. In many ways human society is based on sex. So, protecting and conserving the value of sex is a very understandable and necessary action.
u.
Really? U. are smarter than that.
How can we talk about "the human value of sex" or its role in "human society" when for 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of history the woman [or female, since we can include all mammals here] had no fucking say or choice in it.
How can you pretend to say we are "conserving" anything when rape is the most committed and least prosecuted event there is?

I love you, u. but this ain't right.
Cuz, historically, despite the anatomically and politically incorrect things:
Men are DICKS and men are PUSSIES.
[they bully those weaker physically, and they whine about hormones and how they can't help it when caught]

And look, factually: human survival doesn't have FUCK ALL to do [in the past...and probably not the future] the "spirituality" or "morality" of sex.
Human survival existed before morality.
Spirituality existed before moral-sex-exclusion.

Y'all need to not get me wrong: Spirit/Love/Sex can be conjoined in the most amazing ways. That is a sweet-ass thing.
But people can't factually separate those things. They may or may not happen in various alignment...and may or may not fit the "Judges" definition.
And no one not involved gets to decide, in any voluntary situation.


On the large scale, I personally think that the ONLY reason prostitution exists is BECAUSE people pretend that SEX is "spiritual" yet build the lives and structures and rules as if it were "gold".
A guarantee against inflation, a source of real value...


A total piece of bullshit.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Not one of us would be here if not for an uncountable number of pregnancies that were the result of alcohol, one night stands, and affairs. Sex without the heights you are talking about, Dondarion, has been a gigantic part of human history. (To say nothing of the other critters of the world.) Of course, it is best when it comes with love. But that doesn't mean having and allowing it without that love is degradation. It's just a part of us. And if some can't get it with the love, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to get it at all.
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Post by ussusimiel »

Vraith wrote:
ussusimiel wrote:I understand some of where Dondarion is coming from. Sex is one of the most important human behaviours because of its centrality to fertility and relationships. In many ways human society is based on sex. So, protecting and conserving the value of sex is a very understandable and necessary action.
u.
Really? U. are smarter than that.
How can we talk about "the human value of sex" or its role in "human society" when for 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of history the woman [or female, since we can include all mammals here] had no fucking say or choice in it.
You know I'm smarter than that. I didn't say 'human value of sex', I said the 'value of sex' (I feel like I'm in the 'Tank, only we never get into it like this in the 'Tank :lol:). I'll qualify the phrase and say the 'social value of sex'. And what I was responding to and thinking of mostly is the value that religion places on sex. I'm not for a second thinking that the people involved (especially women) have been treated as equally valuable as sex and fertility. I was brought up a Catholic, I know whereof I speak.

As I see it, one of the primary concerns of religion is the protection of society, and one of the basic ways that it has done this is through the control of fertility, especially through the control of women's bodies and desire. And, this still continues today, which is why I can see protecting it as an 'understandable and necessary action'. (I may have been a little slack with that phrase because, while I see it as understandable, I personally, do not feel that it is necessary for that reason. I do, however, understand why lots and lots of people (especially religious people) see it as necessary.)

It is a powerful force in Western secular society also: 'the breakdown of society', 'family values', 'monogamy' etc. are all more or less centred on sex. The rise of single-parent families is one of the most important factors in the cause of poverty, deprivation and crime. Conservative politics has at core the valuing and thus control of sex. 'Liberal' politics is more liberal about it and yet still has a huge element of 'family values' at its centre.

Vraith wrote:...Y'all need to not get me wrong: Spirit/Love/Sex can be conjoined in the most amazing ways. That is a sweet-ass thing.
But people can't factually separate those things. They may or may not happen in various alignment...and may or may not fit the "Judges" definition.
And no one not involved gets to decide, in any voluntary situation.
I can make a categoric difference because of the mediating fact of money. I have no doubt that sex has been mediated in other ways and used for millennia for purposes much separated from the spiritual: power, influence, wealth, and in almost all cases fertility is also a factor. And once fertility is involved, the mystery of what it means to be human is also involved*.

I think that commodifying sex devalues it, and I believe that there is a spiritual price to be paid for that, both individually or socially. In saying that, I'll admit that I do not have any clear idea of what the long-term effects of this might be socially.

u.

* Obviously, where force is involved (such as the use of rape as a weapon of war, which is still happening today) the spiritual potential of sex is absent or deliberately desecrated. The horrific power of such acts is partly a measure of how much value we place on sex.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

ussusimiel wrote:I think that commodifying sex devalues it, and I believe that there is a spiritual price to be paid for that, both individually or socially. In saying that, I'll admit that I do not have any clear idea of what the long-term effects of this might be socially.
The long-term effects are with us today. It's not like sex has been the glorious spiritual joining throughout most of history, and has only recently begun to be commodified. It's always been treated like that. I gave a short list in my previous post. Add kings with their harems. And Prima noche. And people having sex out of guilt; boredom; a sense of obligation; because a woman's husband demanded it; and on and on. We are not living at the beginning of a change in humanity's attitude toward sex. All of this stuff has been with us since the beginning.
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Post by Ananda »

I've seen a few guys here sort of exaggerate up the ideal of love sex and how it is some spiritual, height reaching thingie. I don't know about that. I am not sure romanticising sex (haha) is really necessary.

The pleasure from sexual activity is not tied to love at all. It is tied to chemicals released in the brain and psychology, I think. They always say that sex is mostly in your head. Some people (like the guys who posted above) may have fantasies, desires, ideals that revolve around this ultimate love sex and that's fine, but it is just a fantasy fulfilment like anything else, isn't it?

Some people can't get off unless they're being tied up, flogged, having nipples twisted and being called a frog, and on and on... There are 7 billion people in the world and the ideal sex is different for every one of us.

I'd say there is nothing at all 'spiritual' about sex and that, like eating, is an activity. We are sentient, so we assign meanings to things, but each person assigns different meanings. If one thinks it is spiritual, then that's just fine: it is their fantasy and people loves fantasies. But, the next does not assign that same fantasy to it. And the rest of the animals don't care at all.

Anyway, I don't understand putting sex on a pedestal. It is an activity that, thank you modern birth control, we mostly do for pleasure rather than reproduction.

For the 'can it harm you emotionally being a sex worker' question, again, I say maybe. But then, there are many jobs that can harm one emotionally. I listed several of the ones I thought of on the previous page. I know I am not alone in thinking at least some of those can be emotionally damaging because I've seen people here say so in other threads. But, emotionally damaging or twisting perspective is not 'spiritual damage'. I am not even sure what 'spiritual damage' is but a very emotional way to talk about the psyche. Also, this activity will go on no matter what people think about it. :lol:

If people mean a religious type of spirit, isn't a spirit supposed to be some immutable thing anyway? A representative of the whole? How can the whole damage the whole? Or, as Krishna says,
Know That, by which all this (universe) is pervaded, to be indestructible. No one can destroy the indestructible (Atma) . (2.17)
Bodies of the eternal, imperishable, and incomprehensible soul are said to be perishable. Therefore, fight, O Arjuna. (2.18)
The one who thinks that Atma is a slayer, and the one who thinks that Atma is slain, both are ignorant, because Atma neither slays nor is slain. (2.19)
The Atma is neither born nor does it die at any time, nor having been it will cease to exist again. It is unborn, eternal, permanent, and primeval. The Atma is not destroyed when the body is destroyed. (2.20)
O Arjuna, how can a person who knows that the Atma is indestructible, eternal, unborn, and imperishable, kill anyone or cause anyone to be killed? (2.21)
Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly Atma acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies. (2.22)
Weapons do not cut this Atma, fire does not burn it, water does not make it wet, and the wind does not make it dry. (2.23)
This Atma cannot be cut, burned, wetted, or dried up. It is eternal, all pervading, unchanging, immovable, and primeval. (2.24)
The Atma is said to be unmanifest, unthinkable, and unchanging. Knowing this Atma as such you should not grieve. (2.25)
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Post by Dondarion »

I would only like to say that I agree whole heartedly with most of what "U" is saying. Whereas it might be nice to live and let live all the time, there is a price for for the actions we take and those we condone as a civilized modern and educated society (and don't throw around the ancients or even the middle ages as counter-examples of acceptable norms). We don't get a say in these risks, they are what they are. They are truths. The risk to societal and family well being, the risk to monogamous relationships, disease, dignity, long term self worth, abortion, etc.
The primary purpose of the sexual act in human civilization is family. That's why we have the body parts we have where we have them. Otherwise, you could have an orgasm from rubbing each other's ear lobes. And a healthy family requires the love of parents in a strong committed relationship. None of us would be where we are if society don't support that notion as absolutely (excuse the phrase) central. Children are the most beautiful blessings known to mankind. I wish everyone could experience that joy. Sex is the act that facilitates that joy. The feeling you get is a great fringe benefit. And yes, religion serves an important, if not critical, purpose in championing that cause and purpose. I for one am glad to have someone out there paying attention to the greater good of our existence. It points us in the direction of matters that are outside of the self, outwardly thinking for the benefit of others for a change. As humans, we all need that, whether we know it or not.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

The ancients and the middle ages are not counter-examples of acceptable norms. They are simply other parts of the human timeline. And throughout all parts off the human timeline, sex has played many roles, and been viewed in many different ways. Just as it is today. Things are not different now than they've ever been.
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Post by lorin »

Touchy subject for me.

I am a 59 year old woman that for one reason or another have lived a life of one, two, three night stands. You get the idea. And I will tell you, from my heart, it slowly chips away at the soul, or spirit, if you will. After a time you never learn about relationships, how to be in one, how to maintain one.

I also worked for thirty years with the fallout of non-committed sexual encounters. Women with 5-6-7 children with different fathers, who have never met their fathers.

Sex without love or emotional commitment does have a place in our society, as does prostitution. But to deny that that there is fallout from a life of being or using prostitutes is ludicrous. It is not about morality, it is about humanity.

I would also say to those that have difficulty meeting men (or women) to look inward. Ask yourself what is the man or woman you are presenting to the world and what can you work on. I ask myself that question every day. It is an ongoing challenge.
Fist and Faith wrote:The Gods Must Be Crazy, eh?

Great movie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCQIGiXf0JA
The loudest truth I ever heard was the softest sound.
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