Kevin's Watch

A Gap reread is always a good idea.

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

People speak of Linden as if she's some sort of afterthought.

Inasmuch as everything after 1st Chrons is an afterthought, then yeah, I s'pose so. But that's about as far as that goes.

Linden is integral.

It takes a lot of insight, empathy and intuition for a man to write credible female characters. It takes a lot of insight, empathy and intuition for a man to read credible female characters.

THOOLA has returned to redeem your mortal soul

Haha. Hating Linden. It's like coming home again.

-jay

Savor Dam wrote:A Gap reread is always a good idea.

I'll probably be doing one soon myself.

--A

kevinswatch wrote:I still think I'll start with a Gap re-read first.

I was considering that as well... as soon as I finish the Dresden Files series I'm reading through.

It's been too long since I read the Gap

I think my Dark Tower journey will take me the rest of this year (or longer). After that, it will be all the Phillip K Dick books I've never read. I've done the Gap about 3 times, so that's enough for me right now. I don't foresee reading any Donaldson until he comes out with something new.

You guys have fun!

Zarathustra wrote:I don't foresee reading any Donaldson until he comes out with something new.

Two novellas, published as a single volume, will be out this October!

kevinswatch wrote:Haha. Hating Linden. It's like coming home again.

-jay

Indeed. There's quite a group of us Linden haters.

And we can't forget the original thread that started THOOLAH:

THOOLAH has come to redeem your mortal soul.

That thread still cracks me the heck up every time I read it.

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

People speak of Linden as if she's some sort of afterthought.

Inasmuch as everything after 1st Chrons is an afterthought, then yeah, I s'pose so. But that's about as far as that goes.

Linden is integral.

It takes a lot of insight, empathy and intuition for a man to write credible female characters. It takes a lot of insight, empathy and intuition for a man to read credible female characters.

Yay! A recruit for Linden's Army! Suck it, THOOLAHns!

Linden's worst sin though is that she doesn't grow. Suffering through Runes, her internal monologue wasn't appreciably different than it was in TOT.

This point has been made by many over the years, and I agree. I think it was Fist who first helped me understand that essentially at the end of WGW, Linden had grown into a capable and confident woman who had put her self-doubt and self-recrimination behind her. However, in ROTE and again in FR, we see only the same Linden that we came to know and understand in TOT.

+JMJ+

dlbpharmd wrote:I think it was Fist who first helped me understand that essentially at the end of WGW, Linden has grown into a capable and confident woman who has put her self-doubt and self-recrimination behind her. However, in ROTE and again in FR, we see only the same Linden that we came to know and understand in TOT.

Do we see that? Or do we see an arrogant, cocksure, and reckless Linden whose deeds only conduce to ruin?

Neither. We see a woman who has had her patient kidnapped and many of her coworkers slaughtered in cold blood...followed by the kidnapping of her adopted son and the murder of his caregiver.

Hell yes, she regressed from some of the progress she'd made ten years earlier...and maintained until that day. Who wouldn't backslide a bit? Who would not be a gibbering mess?

Linden knows what is important to her and is focused on that. However, she has no clue how Foul has rigged the game...and she can afford neither to make a mistake nor to lose time avoiding Foul's snares.

She is exactly who SRD wanted her to be. He doesn't pamper his characters, but he surely knows how to get what he needs from them.

+JMJ+

Savor Dam wrote:Linden … can afford neither to make a mistake …

And yet, on the main, that's all she did.

I don't recall any mistakes, any gibbering, or any recklessness. Nor any lack of confidence before AATE. It would be interesting to see this pointed out, but it's probably better for another thread. Tom's trying to avoid Linden, after all.

+JMJ+

aliantha wrote:Yay! A recruit for Linden's Army! Suck it, THOOLAHns!

I will not sacrifice Linden. We've made too many compromises already. Too many retreats. They invade our threads, and we fall back. They assimilate entire forums, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!

Savor Dam wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:I don't foresee reading any Donaldson until he comes out with something new.

Two novellas, published as a single volume, will be out this October!

Whoa, that's awesome news! Thanks.

On Linden: a character who makes no mistakes is boring. I love Linden, but not because she's perfect. I think she does make some mistakes. Giving Joan the ring could be argued as a mistake. Underestimating Roger was a mistake. Thinking everything was okay because the beggar hadn't shown up was a mistake.

And a whopper: she mistook Roger for Thomas! She was mistaken. And she trusted him enough to go back in time with him. That was a mistake, too. Roger clearly wasn't trustworthy.

And the biggest whopper of all: she woke the Worm! If that wasn't a mistake, then there would have been no need to rectify it!

Now granted, she took those mistakes and did some amazing things with them. In fact, one could argue that saving the Land depended on her making those mistakes. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake in the first place (at best, it only means that Donaldson is good at creating conflict and complex redemption plots). Making lemonade out of lemons doesn't turn them into apples. Mistakes can be redeemed or improved by one's actions later, but not retroactively erased. In hindsight it's easy to say, "It turned out okay, therefore it was the right thing to do." But that's like saying slavery wasn't a mistake because it ended up bringing lots of black people out of Africa to America, where their descendants had it better than their African counterparts. The ends don't justify the means. We can make restitution for the means, and we can make peace with the fact that bad things are an inevitable process of getting good things out of the world. But that doesn't erase mistakes no more than it erases evil. Lord Foul is still contained in TC, after all.

The point of Linden's story isn't that she does no wrong. It's that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and risk making mistakes in order to do the most important things.

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

aliantha wrote:Yay! A recruit for Linden's Army! Suck it, THOOLAHns!

I will not sacrifice Linden. We've made too many compromises already. Too many retreats. They invade our threads, and we fall back. They assimilate entire forums, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!

Wos, Linden's Army (LA) are the supporters of Linden. THOOLAH are those who find despair in her existence. From most of your posts, ali is saying you belong in LA.

And for those who haven't finished the chrons, there is OPAL (Opinion Pending About Linden), which I was until I finished the chrons.

+JMJ+

Menolly wrote:

Wosbald wrote:

aliantha wrote:Yay! A recruit for Linden's Army! Suck it, THOOLAHns!

I will not sacrifice Linden. We've made too many compromises already. Too many retreats. They invade our threads, and we fall back. They assimilate entire forums, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!

Wos, Linden's Army (LA) are the supporters of Linden. THOOLAH are those who find despair in her existence. From most of your posts, ali is saying you belong in LA.

Yah, I got it. I was simply plus-oneing aliantha.

Tough room.

Zarathustra wrote:Thinking everything was okay because the beggar hadn't shown up was a mistake.

Expecting the beggar to have shown up (and being pissed about it) was a mistake. I never understood why she thought he should have. TC saw him once, at his first translation to the Land. She saw him once at her first translation. What made her think he had to show up every time? He didn't for TC...

--A

Zarathustra wrote:And a whopper: she mistook Roger for Thomas! She was mistaken. And she trusted him enough to go back in time with him. That was a mistake, too. Roger clearly wasn't trustworthy

But Linden never trusted Roger in his TC guise enough to give him the ring, and was forced to go into the past with Roger by the will of the Masters. Faced with this opposition, even Stave and Mahrtiir could see no other road, and could only advise compliance.