Kevin's Watch

But whatever he said, it was in english, right?

Why birdandbear, whatever are you talking about?

Remember, too, that Pettigrew now owes Harry a Wizard's Debt for saving his life - this, I suppose, is what Dumbledore was referring to. It may be that Peter shows some sort of courage at that point, more than repayment of the Debt requires.

Also... I'd say cutting your hand off for your boss is pretty courageous, in a sick, senseless sort of way. I think Peter could have left the continent, as a rat, and set up shop somewhere far away, never to be found again... especially if he didn't have the Dark Mark. I don't think Voldie would have looked for a rat he thought was dead, so Peter took a hell of a chance going back to Voldemort before the guy had even returned to full power.

I still maintain the fact that Peter Pettigrew eleven years old was--inevitably--very different from when he was in his twenties. Therein lies the fact he was chosen for Gryffindor.

And despite what Sirius says now with 20/20 hindsight, both he and Lupin told stories of Peter having daring adventures as one of the Marauders.

In other words, Sirius and Lupin are prejudiced. Understandably, but prejudiced. Yet at the time none of them suspected Peter. Sirius suspected Lupin. Lupin suspected Sirius! So the actual events give a strong hint that Peter Pettigrew was not always quite so snivelling.

I'd also argue when push comes to shove, Peter shows surprising steel. My own inclination at the end of POA in his position would have been to hide somewhere far, far away. He sought out Voldemort! And in GOF he actually let someone cut off his arm! Wow. That takes guts.

I have great respect for Rowling as a writer, and part of that respect is that I believe all her characters show as much complexity as Snape--even when their surface at first seems so very simple.

Zahir wrote:
I'd also argue when push comes to shove, Peter shows surprising steel. My own inclination at the end of POA in his position would have been to hide somewhere far, far away. He sought out Voldemort! And in GOF he actually let someone cut off his arm! Wow. That takes guts.

I believe he actually cut off his own arm, which would take even more guts.

The whole thing with Dumbledore's hints about Harry someday being glad he had not allowed Wormtail to be killed reminds me of Gandalf talking to Frodo about Gollum in the LOTR...that there will someday be another part for him to play before the end of the tale...

May I jump in on this old thread?

Can someone point out to me where the books say all four were in Gryffendor? Remember the tale from the sorting hat, about how the four houses have to come together?

Unless I missed where the books say James, Lupin, Sirius, and Peter were all in Gryffendor, I have a theory that those four were the sorting hat's first attempt at bringing the four houses together. In which case I belive they would have been divided by:

James - Gryffendor
Lupin - Ravenclaw
Sirius - Slytherin
Peter - Hufflepuff

even though Peter turned bad and Sirius denounced his family history.

Now, Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville are the next attempt. The hat decided to put them all in the Gryffendor this time, but they could have easily been sorted as:

Ron - Gryffendor
Harry - Slytherin
Hermione - Ravenclaw
Neville - Hufflepuff

Does that make any sense to anyone, other than myself?

I think the case can be made for your argument. Many of the characters exhibit traits that seem to make them more suited for another house. If it is true, though, then the Sorting Hat doesn't know what it's doing.

Harry, despite his many Slytherin traits, becomes more and more the Gryffindor as the years progress. Likewise Hermione, although she seems to me from the start to have been quite the Gryffindor. Neville is also becoming braver and more rash.

My point is that the environment these kids are growing up in is shaping them, and if this is the Hat's attempt to unite the houses, it is very flawed. Say you put Ron in Slytherin... hard-headed and rash as he is, he has some sort of strategic ability (and therefore cunning), as shown by his prowess at chess. Slytherin would nurture that and drum the rest out of him. He might retain some traces of Gryffindor behavior, but not enough, I think, to allow him to cooperate with someone who was raised a Gryffindor.

Getting back to Peter: I agree with Zahir and maintain that seeking out Voldemort before his return was assured, as well as cutting his own hand off to facilitate that return, show a twisted sort of bravery. Peter's courage shows in choosing the lesser of two evils: by helping Voldemort come back, he has secured himself a place at the wizard's side and doesn't have to fear being hunted for the rest of his life. It's also quite a Slytherin thing to do.

In the end, I think each person has in them the qualities of all four houses, with one just a bit more prominent or obvious than the rest.

Alynna Lis Eachann wrote:I think the case can be made for your argument. Many of the characters exhibit traits that seem to make them more suited for another house. If it is true, though, then the Sorting Hat doesn't know what it's doing.

Harry, despite his many Slytherin traits, becomes more and more the Gryffindor as the years progress. Likewise Hermione, although she seems to me from the start to have been quite the Gryffindor. Neville is also becoming braver and more rash.

My point is that the environment these kids are growing up in is shaping them, and if this is the Hat's attempt to unite the houses, it is very flawed.

Ah...but I think the hat learned that the house environment <i>will</i> influence the student, so after the failure (?) with James, Sirius, Lupin, and Peter (if they were in different houses) the hat decided to take students suited for the different houses and put them all in Gryffendor. And, other than Hermione, the new quartet not only share the house they're in, but dormitory as well.

After all, Harry pulled Godric Gryffendor's sword out of the sorting hat and Neville did stand up to the trio sneaking out of the tower. The environment is definitely important in the shape of their eventual overall character.

I'm thinking the hat decided trying to have the houses come together without some subtle influence (like putting potential students together in the same house) may never happen, so it decided these students, who would be perfectly at home in the different houses, would all be placed in one house.

I dunno, it's a theory in development. Perhaps all will be revealed by the end of book seven.

I seem to remember that Sirius was in Gryffindor. He was a Black family outcast because he was not chosen for Slytherin.

Of course I could be remembering wrong...I'll have to look it up when I get home.

Lorelei wrote:I seem to remember that Sirius was in Gryffindor. He was a Black family outcast because he was not chosen for Slytherin.

Of course I could be remembering wrong...I'll have to look it up when I get home.

Yup. And Lupin was made a Prefect (rather than James) so he could keep the others in line, meaning if James and Lupin were both considered for the same prefect job, they must be in the same house (likewise if he was supposed to keep the other 3 in line, they would all be in the same house). I'm pretty sure JKR confirmed in an interview that they were all Gryffindors. It would be very difficult for them to all sneak out at night together, and to become Animagi after 5 years of working on it, if they weren't in the same house.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, Dumbledore said Harry would be glad one day that he saved Peter. Peter likely will sacrifice himself to repay the debt to Harry, meaning the sorting hat do indeed do it's job putting Peter in Gryffindor, it just took an awful long tiome for him to show his true Gryffindor colors.

Don't forget what Dumbledore says about the sorting hat...essentially our choices not our abilities define us. Harry begged to be in Gryffindor and so the sorting hat placed him despite his very Slyerthin abilities. Wormtail may have had Gryffindor abilities but ultimatly made different choices.

And their is still one more book...

I'm returning to this old thread to make a couple of points.

We now know Peter was in Gryffindore, due to the memories revealed in DH. Lilly, Peter, Sirius, James and Remus were all in Gryffindore together, while Snape was in Slytherin.

Rowling has stated that the Sorting Hat is never wrong. She didn't really expand on that very much, though. Methinks it isn't so much a matter that Gryffindores are brave while Ravenclaws are smart. Recall that Hermione is in Gryffindore, while by the end of DH more than one Slytherin showed considerable bravery. Rather, it is a matter of "Which House is this person's family?" That is not in and of itself a guarantee that each student will remain loyal to his (or her) House members. Nor does it mean that only members of each House demonstrate the qualities each is famous for.

Think about it. Isn't Percy extremely ambitious? Wasn't Oliver Wood hard-working? Tonks was terribly brave, wasn't she? And she was in Hufflepuff (according to Rowling). So I think the Sorting Hat's function was more about placing students in a home-away-from-home.

Actually, per JKR, it's what defines you. Yes, Hermione could be a Ravenclaw, but, her bravery and Loyalty define her more than her smarts.

Sorry for bumping this old thread but amazing how things turn out over the years.

I have to agree with Zahir, he makes some very great points.

I think despite the way be betrays James, Lilly, etc Peter is a very brave person. Just think out of all the death eaters that are free it is only Peter that goes and finds him. Even though it is out of fear he still does it. The amount of loyalty and bravery he shows would exemplify Gryffindor student traits.

Also lets not forget 2 things...

1. Dumbledore felt that they sort way too early. He says this in DH to Snape (Harry see's this in the pensive using Snape's memory)

2. Despite it all, you can choose which house you want to go in. I think we sometimes forget that. Harry CHOSE to be in Gryffindor after learning about Slytherine and meeting Draco. The hat takes into account what that student wants. Many students im sure don't even think about it and just get sorted and call it a day.

Okay -- the problem with Sorting Pettigrew is that he doesn't live to up to our image of whata Gryffindor should be. But that's because he doesn't live up to our image of what a *person* should be. He wouldn't have made sense in any other house.

Hufflepuff? He has no trace of their group spirit. Ravenclaw? he's got a certain cunning, but was never portrayed as an intellectual. And It's claimed that he wasn't as smart as the other Marauders, though I'm not sure I believe that.

Slytherin? This is a potential fit, but he never wanted *power* He worked cunningly for survival, but his goals have always been priase and belonging, not mastery.

Every house must have a dark side as well as an ideal, and Pettigrew is an example of gryffindor gone wrong.