Kevin's Watch

Cail wrote:

Avatar wrote:

Cail wrote:If you value equal treatment of women and homosexuals, as well as the freedom to call religion, "fantasy", then the rise of Islam in Europe, and the wave of emigration from the ME should concern you greatly.

Christianity doesn't value any of those things either of course.

Bunk. Christianity doesn't stone people, throw them off buildings, or behead them. Nor do they do this.

I didn't say that Christianity stones people (anymore), or throws them off buildings of beheads them, or beats them for refusing arranged marriages (anymore).

I said that Christianity traditionally didn't (and technically still doesn't) value the equal treatment of women and homosexuals, or the freedom to call religion fantasy.

In 1 Timothy 2:12 was wrote:But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

In Leviticus 20:13 was wrote:If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

In Leviticus 24:16 was wrote:Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

In Psalm 14:1 was wrote:The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

Religious practice and teachings and opinion change over time in order to remain relevant to the people who practice it. If/when enough practitioners move away from those specific interpretations, then the religious teachings adapt.

--A

Im sure there exist radical christians and others who still literally believe in every biblical word as directions to adhere to.

Of course how do you deal with the exigencies of literary conflict and contradictions .. well apologists do their part.. the convenience of individual or institutional adaptations and interpretation does the rest. We make it what we want it to be .. period.

Theyre all the same .. every religious institution and every branch of to it and every individual member of it .. does just that. And with the issues they cant reconcile .. because no reconciliation could possibly enlighten its meaning .. they instruct their followers not to question and exercise faith.

Skyweir wrote:Im sure there exist radical christians and others who still literally believe in every biblical word as directions to adhere to.

They're the extremely rare exception, not the rule. Unless you're Avatar and living a thousand years ago. Honor killings, arranged marriages of minor children, genital mutilation, intolerance of infidels, women, and homosexuals....That's mainstream Islam right now.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is that the Muslim world never went through its own Enlightenment. Christianity didn't just merely evolve to fit the times; it's not a point in Christianity's favor that it was dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age. The West underwent a revolution on all fronts, from science to society. Literal revolution happened, giving us freedom from monarchs and the threat of theocracy. Conceptual/figurative revolution freed us from the chains of dogma.

Islam isn't going to adapt to the Western ideals because it's still largely practiced in theocracies. And the scientific revolution which freed us from dogma is seen as something Western, part of our decadent culture that must be resisted.

Christianity is just an irrelevant leftover. This isn't a contest between two religions, or even two cultures that have two different religions. This is a contest between a medieval worldview and the Enlightened West. Comparing religions misses the point. Christianity is mostly harmless (from a political standpoint, not a personal one) because it has been reduced to a contradiction: a religion that is too embarrassed to follow its own Holy Book. Christianity has been shamed, cowed. Islam, on the other hand, is still dominated by people who take it seriously enough to wage a religious war. Christianity hasn't triumphed over Islam, it isn't "better" than Islam merely because it happened to exist in a society that remade itself in spite of religion, it has instead been beaten into submission by reason--so much so that it denies its own origins and tenets in the Old Testament.

Pretending that the origins of Christianity are anything other than butchery, slavery, homophobia, infanticide, xenophobia, racism, etc. is just being dishonest. The Bible describes brutality after brutality as if they were good. Its believers think there's nothing wrong with drowning virtually 99.9999% of all life on earth because God was pissed at some humans. It's not enough that they would all go to hell after they die, nope, got to drown them all along with most of the animal life before they get there, destroying Creation in a Heavenly hissy fit. Yeah, that sounds like the actions of an all-knowing, benevolent God! Fuck life on earth, drown them all. That'll teach them!

Oops, no it didn't. We're still just as shitty as we were then. Smooth move God! Got any better ideas, infinitely wise being? How about a flesh eating virus? Or a good ol' asteroid? Come on, teach us another lesson! We know it's only because you love us so much that you inflict such catastrophes upon us!

Nevermind, we came up with our own idea: reject your barbaric mythology.

I think Zar's view is jaundiced due to his anti-religion lenses.

The simple difference is that Christians, for one reason or another, decided to stop killing people who don't agree with their dogma. And Christ did, in fact, make a distinction between the laws of God and man. There are no Christian theocracies, and there haven't been in a long, long time. "Killing in the name of Christ" just isn't a thing anymore, with the exception of the odd lunatic here and there. Whereas Islam hasn't gotten there, and won't anytime soon.

Christians, by and large, keep their religion and their government separated, and in the rare case that there's a push to connect them, it's usually squashed quickly.

True enough ..

But allow me to bow deeply to Z for that brilliant critique Beautifully articulated and highly compelling. And not just because I share those views, but because I doubt I could express them so efficiently or eloquently. Nice Z .. very nice work indeed.

Ok back to Cail - yes I agree and I partly disagree.

Yes Christianity has evolved if you will .. as Z described. The Enlightenment might have played a significant role in that evolution but they continued to burn and drown women deemed witches.

Many atrocities were committed by virtue of missionary work .. spreading Christianity to the four corners of the earth.

Yes Christianity influenced the development of the West but also retained views of women as property and blacks as slaves and today still demonises homosexuality as it utterly conflicts with the Christian and Islamic paradigms.

But yes for the most part Christianity is much more civilised generally speaking only than it was. Youre right about Muslims adhering to an arcane framework of beliefs. Even the Jews who share similar tomes are not at all arcane .. but I suppose there are orthodoxies that are

I hope that as humans continue to evolve intellectually.. become more enlightened.. they will set aside religions, myth and fable .. and see the world without the restrictions and blindness religion institute to preserve their mythologies.

I hope one day there will be no need of religions because we know better.

I seem to remember learning in school that the Muslims kept science alive during the Dark Ages. Kind of ironic?

Fist and Faith wrote:I seem to remember learning in school that the Muslims kept science alive during the Dark Ages. Kind of ironic?

I will break my self-imposed exile from The Close to respond to this one comment:

That was before the advent of Wahhabism.

Now I take my leave again.

Agreed.

And on your point there are some radicalised Christians in court now answering charges of terrorism following a 15m FBI investigation.. their plan dismantled.. was to deploy improvised explosive devices in homes of Muslim immigrants, their mosques in Kansas. They possessed an highly stocked armoury. All now confiscated and amen to the 2nd amendment.. umm .. rights of those men.

So not all are equal .. in that evolution

Vraith wrote:I don't know....
Considering the recent resurgence of racist/religioist/authoritarian Westerners, I'd say Christianity is one successful prophet away from being as deadly as it ever was.

Help me out here, I can't think of a single racist/religioist/authoritarian Westerner who has become resurgent recently. Are you talking about Trump? He's less religious than Obama, less authoritarian than Hillary, and while I know it's popular to describe him as a racist, supporting border security doesn't make you a racist.

Vraith wrote:Heh...we just got Bolton in a position of power/influence. He's as dangerous as Iran all by himself.[/color]

It's statements like this that entirely undermine your credibility. We get it, you don't like Republicans. But come on, he's not as dangerous as Iran! He's not a state sponsor of terrorism, he's not trying to build nukes in defiance of the world, he's never kidnapped Americans, he doesn't oppress millions of his own people, he has never promised to wipe a country off the map. Jesus, Vraith, get a grip! Statements like this just make you look ludicrous and unhinged.

Mainstream Christians aren't going to rise up and stone women and gays, nor will they sit quietly when others do. The most recent example I can think of is the killing of abortion doctors a decade or two ago. Even hard-line pro-life Christians were against that.

I'm not defending the faith one little bit, but there's no way fundamentalist Christians ever take over this or any country.

I mean to say: thanks Sky!

Cail wrote:The simple difference is that Christians, for one reason or another, decided to stop killing people who don't agree with their dogma.

You don't think it's because they happen to find themselves in societies that reject God and Biblical revelation as the ultimate truth? A change came about because of scientific + social revolution? It can't be a coincidence.

Society and human knowledge has been moving forward, pushing the change, while (like the Pope finally apologizing about Galileo centuries later) Christianity has just been playing catch up, dragged along unwillingly and forced to make changes in order just to stay relevant.

Zarathustra wrote: Are you talking about Trump?

It's statements like this that entirely undermine your credibility. We get it, you don't like Republicans.

On the first: No. I wasn't thinking about him at all on that. I was thinking about the neo-nazi and related protests around the U.S., the rise of right-wing parties all around Europe, those kinds of things.

On the second...it's not Republicans, though the extremes they've welcomed is starting to make it that way... It's nasty pieces of work like Bolton. Bolton has an absolute lust for war. Truth doesn't undermine my credibility, and his own words prove he is.
And plenty of our friends and allies are state sponsors of terror...including ourselves every so often. Iran isn't the worst by any objective measure.

Go ahead, Hashi...move this on out of here.

Vraith wrote:[Go ahead, Hashi...move this on out of here.

That would be me. And I'm ok with it so far.

And I'd say, no matter how overblown Iran's bad reputation might be, it's still done way way worse than Bolton has done. He's just an annoying singer. And he was great on Fresh Off the Boat.

Zarathustra wrote:

Cail wrote:The simple difference is that Christians, for one reason or another, decided to stop killing people who don't agree with their dogma.

You don't think it's because they happen to find themselves in societies that reject God and Biblical revelation as the ultimate truth? A change came about because of scientific + social revolution? It can't be a coincidence.

Society and human knowledge has been moving forward, pushing the change, while (like the Pope finally apologizing about Galileo centuries later) Christianity has just been playing catch up, dragged along unwillingly and forced to make changes in order just to stay relevant.

I don't know. All I do know is that Christians don't tend to kill people, nor do they tend to have theocracies. Islam is still mired in the 10th century.

I think so Z

Christians are not one homogeneous group of identical thinking humans with mirrored principles.

Fundamentalist Christians are JUST as dangerous as fundamentalist anything. Case in point the Christian Crusaders on trial for terrorism.

Maybe its a human thing .. Humans are prone to anger, violence, jealousy.. vengeance, they are not great adapters to change and can become rabid in their treatment of others who do not share their world view.

I recall once in church suggesting that if god created this world for his children .. as a learning experience, to experience mortality and learn to master their flesh .. surely it is to assist them ALL in the quest for immortality... challenging the notion of hell, limbo etc.

The rabid opposition to that .. proposition .. I am one to think and process my thinking vocally .. was rabidly fierce .. if it were the Middle Ages I would have no doubt that would have been an offence they would have gladly crucified me or had me burned st the stake.

Just the thought that they might share an eternal reward with humans that had not sacrificed their Sundays, undertaken acts of serviced .. umm charity .. as they had was intolerable to them.

Humans are pretty fucked up imo. Christians are not ALL THAT humans are not ALL THAT .. we will probably instigate our own extinction because of our flaws, our inability to embrace change, our intolerance for difference .. meh

Not all are equal in their goodness or lack there of, in integrity or lack thereof ...

Zarathustra wrote:The difference between Islam and Christianity is that the Muslim world never went through its own Enlightenment....

This isn't a contest between two religions, or even two cultures that have two different religions. This is a contest between a medieval worldview and the Enlightened West.

Comparing religions misses the point. Christianity is mostly harmless (from a political standpoint, not a personal one) because it has been reduced to a contradiction: a religion that is too embarrassed to follow its own Holy Book. Christianity has been shamed, cowed. Islam, on the other hand, is still dominated by people who take it seriously enough to wage a religious war.

Agreed, and well said.

--A

I agree with all except this

Christianity has been shamed, cowed

Come on down here to the Bible belt and see how cowed Christianity is. There is a Church on every corner and a bible in every hand. You will see people standing on corners reading the Bible out loud, a team with a bullhorn at every Falcons Home game at the entry reading from Revelation. I don't think you will find it cowed at all. Matter of fact people down here are tired of having their religion be pushed behind closed doors and we are seeing a resurgence of Church plants (New Churches planted from existing Churches).

What most see as a decline in Christianity is a revolution of sorts that is pushing people away from fundamentalist teaching to a more Christ centered teaching. Because of that Churches are breaking the trend and growing, and reaching out to other areas.

SB, so you are proud of the OT Bible verses that say it's ok to own slaves and stone homosexuals? Those aren't a source of embarrassment? Why doesn't your church follow these Biblical teachings anymore if it hasn't been shamed into modernizing itself?

That's what I mean about being cowed: Christians no longer follow their own holy book. If they did, they'd be as bad as Muslims.

I know that Christians justify this by saying that Jesus represents a "new covenant" and that the OT doesn't have to be followed anymore, but that's just a cop-out. At one time the Christian god told his people they can own other humans as property. That's bad enough on its own, that your god thinks so little of human beings that they can be property. But Jesus has nothing to do with correcting that. There was never any explicit rescinding of that principle in the NT. If there had been, "good" Christians wouldn't have been owning slaves in every Christian country for about 1800 years after Jesus. The NT isn't what changed. Society did. And Christianity now pretends it was their idea to give up slavery all along, because of the New Testament.

That's bullshit.