Kevin's Watch

I don't think the issue is so much the relative speed of benefits vs drawbacks, but whether or not technology solves more problems than it creates. And if you think that living a life that is poor, nasty, brutish, short, uninformed, uncomfortable, confined to a single planet destined to be burnt to a cinder is a problem, then the answer is a resounding, YES!

The drawbacks of technology are minuscule compared to saving all life on earth from eventual obliteration. Even short of that, in the near term, I think that technology solves more problems than it creates. Many of those problems (such as ones related to Internet use) can be avoided simply by walking away. If your problem can be solved with the flip of a power switch, it's not really a problem. As for other problems (e.g. global warming), I think that technology can solve this, too. That's what technology does: it solves problems.

Skyweir wrote:Mmm.. so do you think the instant form of communication has no bearing on bullying and aggressiveness we see in social media?

I'm sure it has an effect. And though we're in a transition, it's overall a GOOD effect going forward.

Bullying ALWAYS existed. And, in fact, was way the hell worse...easiest [not only, but easiest to find/show] evidence of that is percentage of people who died by violence.
We're finally entering [well, been headed toward it a while, from a few to some and growing] a time when MOST bullies get recognized for what they are and either change or get punished.

There's this myth that kids these days are snowflakes, and kids used to learn to punch bullies in the mouth and stand up to them.
Fucking liars.
SOME did.
The REST [the majority] of people kissed asses, learned to hide, joined the gang, or BECAME one...

On tech:
Technology doesn't solve any problems, just like no hammer solved a problem. People use tech ON problems, and it solves only to the extent that most people want what they want---but in the process most would PREFER more help than harm was caused.
That preference means almost everything...because almost every technology at every instant through history has had more destructive capacity than creative.
It just wasn't USED that way, usually, cuz we've been learning how to control/change bullies, and how to make more people care.
[[OTOH, tech always creates problems, even when only applied for good purposes. Just that benefits are fast, obvious, and in the center...costs are slow, and on the fringes [sometimes naturally, sometimes intentionally relocated/camouflaged/flat-out lied about.]

Yup absolutely right V

Bullies have always existed.. my opinion lol has already changed on that front.

And I should have thought better of my earlier question.

I take your point also re technology... it moves in the direction funding, approval and particular agenda drives it.

We are using the internet right now to post to this board. Tendencies towards arguments in the Tank aside, that automatically makes it a pretty cool place.

dw

Amen Dukkha

Zarathustra wrote:
And for those who play video games (or have kids who do), you will know that there is a quantum leap in interactivity for gaming. Being able to inhabit the same virtual environment with all your friends, to play the same game with them, while talking/chatting at the same time, there is simply no way to replicate this without an Internet. It is only possible in real time, with a digital network.

this whole post was a great post and pretty much covers my feelings about the internet and it's advantages but I wanted to point out this particular part because it pertains specifically to me.

you're probably going to think this is silly but here goes...
during the WoW expansion The Wrath of the Lich King, Sorus and Murrin and Creator and I (and the rest of our 10 man raid team) worked and worked on the last boss fight in the final raid of the expansion, Arthas, the Lich King himself. it was a difficult fight with lots and lots of mechanics but when we finally did it you cannot imagine the elation I felt at having done that with my 9 other friends. I stood up at my desk and jumped and hollered and wooted! I had NEVER been a part of a team like that ever before in my life. I had never ever felt that kind of achievement and elation. it was WAY more than just a silly video game to me.
without the internet, i'm not sure I would ever have had that experience.
I am in touch with my friends and family members all over the country and the world.
also, i started writing pomes on the internet. in '92 when i first got a computer, the first bb i signed on to was Prodigy and the first people i met (several of whom i am STILL friends with IRL) were people who were posting their pomes on that board.


and then there is all of you and kevin's watch.
i met and made lifelong friends here.
i met my husband here.


without the internet none of this would've been probable. possible, but not probable.
it's certainly made MY life better, by a long LONG shot!

Definitely a benefit

That's some beautiful stuff you guys are posting!

I guess I don't know about the world anymore .......... but it's definitely made my world a better place!

... but a cynic would point out that being able to point to SOME nice things about the internet is not the same as SHOWING it is positive overall. This is the same fallacy as pointing to a snowy day to show that global warming isn't real.

How many friends on facebook balances out a foreign power shutting down your power grid? How many great game adventures balances out corporate ownership of your DNA? How many cute cat videos balances out inciting a church shooting?

Just playing devil's advocate here. I mean, plantation owners reminisced about how great having slaves was.

Yup, definitely a subjective element to it. IMO, the world is better than it was before the internet. And I don't know how it could be voted as worse.

Yes and its not an uncommon question ... I imagine similar questions were asked after the introduction of the telephone the tv

There was in fact a large social debate after telephones became common fixtures in private homes.

The impact of the telephone on personal correspondence .. letter writing was indeed a thing.

The same with electricity, the first motorised vehicle .. etc etc etc.

With the telephone particularly.. it was, Will this communication device ruin the magic and intrigue of travel ?

Does the status of popular acceptance validate such technological advancements? Can popular appeal ever assure those who retain concerns over similar technological advancemet?

Likely not.

But yet again, its all to my mind about balance ... and imv those who implement balance, will self moderate re their experiences and expectations.

I read the other day that the internet had made the planet more 'nervous'; that the increased rate at which we do ...... well, everything...... was making us more twitchy, more anxious and on edge as a whole, than in past times. The exponential growth in the rate of change of our society brought about by technology was causing us serious problems; the book said that in the next century we will not undergo one hundred years worth of change [as we understand it] but rather around 20,000 years worth as a result of this exponential growth. How can we absorb this and remain sane, as the very tech we use becomes dated at the very moment of acquisition? Yet when we reach the point of 'singularity' - that point at which the smartest human mind performs less well than the lowest AI equivalent - and this is coming whether we like it or not - there will be no stopping it. Our world is outpacing us and the internet is a big part of this.

peter wrote:I read the other day that the internet had made the planet more 'nervous'; that the increased rate at which we do ...... well, everything...... was making us more twitchy, more anxious and on edge as a whole, than in past times. The exponential growth in the rate of change of our society brought about by technology was causing us serious problems; the book said that in the next century we will not undergo one hundred years worth of change [as we understand it] but rather around 20,000 years worth as a result of this exponential growth. How can we absorb this and remain sane, as the very tech we use becomes dated at the very moment of acquisition? Yet when we reach the point of 'singularity' - that point at which the smartest human mind performs less well than the lowest AI equivalent - and this is coming whether we like it or not - there will be no stopping it. Our world is outpacing us and the internet is a big part of this.

That twitching isn't just annoying, either...it's causing enormous physical and mental health problems. I'd say worse than anything except sugars. Many of the things people think of as the worst health/death problems are made much more common, much worse, and in some cases flat out CAUSED by sugar, stress, the two together.
I've heard several ways of talking about rate of change...and the number is WAY bigger than 20000 per 100. The LAST century was more than that, and we're getting faster even faster now. The internet is only one part of it. It's the lines of communication---which is seriously important---but there's a lot more going on.

There are ways to not only adapt to it, but to take advantage of it, to LOVE it. But that's a whole lot of other massive posts/threads on many issues.

lucimay wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:
And for those who play video games (or have kids who do), you will know that there is a quantum leap in interactivity for gaming. Being able to inhabit the same virtual environment with all your friends, to play the same game with them, while talking/chatting at the same time, there is simply no way to replicate this without an Internet. It is only possible in real time, with a digital network.

this whole post was a great post and pretty much covers my feelings about the internet and it's advantages but I wanted to point out this particular part because it pertains specifically to me.

you're probably going to think this is silly but here goes...
during the WoW expansion The Wrath of the Lich King, Sorus and Murrin and Creator and I (and the rest of our 10 man raid team) worked and worked on the last boss fight in the final raid of the expansion, Arthas, the Lich King himself. it was a difficult fight with lots and lots of mechanics but when we finally did it you cannot imagine the elation I felt at having done that with my 9 other friends. I stood up at my desk and jumped and hollered and wooted! I had NEVER been a part of a team like that ever before in my life. I had never ever felt that kind of achievement and elation. it was WAY more than just a silly video game to me.
without the internet, i'm not sure I would ever have had that experience.
I am in touch with my friends and family members all over the country and the world.
also, i started writing pomes on the internet. in '92 when i first got a computer, the first bb i signed on to was Prodigy and the first people i met (several of whom i am STILL friends with IRL) were people who were posting their pomes on that board.


and then there is all of you and kevin's watch.
i met and made lifelong friends here.
i met my husband here.


without the internet none of this would've been probable. possible, but not probable.
it's certainly made MY life better, by a long LONG shot!

I dont play video games much anymore as it became too much of a time sink for me. But I still have friends that I met online playing Everquest and later WoW that I would not have met. I had many of those same experiences at Luci speaks about. I remember staying up until 3AM on a work day to slay dragons in Skyshrine (Everyquest). I remember Corpse recoveries as well. For those that never played EQ, you had to retrieve your corpse to get your gear and recover some of the XP lost when you died. If you died again trying to attempt a corpse recovery, you lost more XP and had another corpse to recover. you could lose your level trying to get your corpses. I remember having a raid wipe in the "planes" and multiple attempts to CR over a few hours. Finally another guild had to break the plane for us just so we could get our corpses out.

I remember the trains in Karnors castle when inexperienced newbs would gain aggro they couldnt handle and try to run out to survive, trailing 20+ mobs causing wipes of entire groups LOL.

Even in that PITA situation, we had a great time and had many laughs.

Fun

The only game I got into was Duke Nukem.. loved it and also wasted a huge bunch of time playing it .. pulling allnighters to kill pigs etc.

But it was workable in the 90s cos had LSL and was at University .. so flexibility was possible.

Once back at work .. playing games was harder.. especially with young kids, family etc.

I would never have been good at gaming, xboxing, play stationing as I get hooked on that shit too easily.

Pete I hear your point about the impact of technological advancements in overall planet and human health ... but tbh I honestly believe V is correct we ... humans have adapted and will continue adapting.

Its not an insurmountable prospect ... indeed to wax Darwinian, those that adapt well to environmental challenges will survive .. and survive because of the acquisition of adaptive capability that will perpetuate human existence.

The alternative, would see the end of human perpetuity.

Something else to perhaps consider is that, relatively speaking, we're still in the early days of its impact on society as a whole. (I know some of us have been online for 25+ years, but the massive rise in connectivity has only happened in the last 10(ish) years.)

We still don't actually know what the wider effects on society are going to be yet.

--A

Very true and valid point.

The technology is also continuously evolving .. so its overall impact may not truly be understood as it is moving faster than we are.

Journalism has taken a hit with the advent of social media.
With all the stories being generated makes it look worse than a puppy mill.

I wonder what would happen if the net shutdown for two weeks?
People wouldn't be sitting on their porch after greasing up a tree
and watching the squirrels slide down.

Greasing up a tree might be exactly what we all do

Avatar wrote:Something else to perhaps consider is that, relatively speaking, we're still in the early days of its impact on society as a whole. (I know some of us have been online for 25+ years, but the massive rise in connectivity has only happened in the last 10(ish) years.)

We still don't actually know what the wider effects on society are going to be yet.

--A

Missed that before, but yea. And it's growing FAST. It took decades...till 2014 ish, I think, to hit 30%, not quite 5 years later, we've doubled that to 60%.
I think at least three companies [SpaceX being one] have plans for affordable broadband access to EVERY point on the planet with 5-ish year timelines...[though I don't know if they mean Antartica in part of every]
AND not just the numbers, but the THINGS that can be done is expanding...people with, just think, a web of 'bots [physical, like drones, digital too, micro-AI assistants] real-time, always-on Augmented [augmented both in having attached digital info AND in the sense of "seeing" infra-red, UV, hearing ULF to well above dog-whistle] and Virtual realities. Real-time universal translators---you can chat with ANYONE, ANYWHERE, using ANY language, in Voice, Text, Sign. And that's just the obvious/easy stuff...stuff that already buildable---just need shrinking and a cheap price point.