Kevin's Watch

grrr...cookies again...and I just noticed I misspelled "manifestation". Ah well...

I was discussing. You were arguing!!

Anyway, since Kevin's Lore is a body of knowledge - regarding the ways to use and manipulate Earthpower, mainly - I wanted to know what you thought Amok was made of. And I thought I understood that to be your theory?

Yep!!! that was it and I was the one discussing...

Wonderer wrote:I think Kevin by virtue of his lore was able to create a being as close the the Elohim as was possibe,after all Amok was the pure form of eathpower bound only by the power of his maker's command sentient in every way and free in every way other than to command his own fate as the Elohim can.

That could be as well I suppose. All I remarked upon was the similarities between Amok and the Elohim. It could be that Kevin used the Elohim as a sort of template for what he thought Amok should be. That would explain it as well.

As for those arguing that Amok couldn't be like Vain because of emotions, etc... Let's not forget that Vain expressed emotions as well. Whenever Covenant would use the wild magic, Vain would smile. When the Clave imprisoned Vain, Covenant noted a look of pleading in Vain's face. Vain even smiled during the first encounters with Findail. So there's no way to really say that Amok wouldn't have been somewhat the same as Vain.

And in that direction lay another similarity it seems... Amok... bearing resemblance to the Elohim... created to be (depending on how you read it) the Seventh Ward/Way to the Seventh Ward... And people arguing that he is a construct... no different than Vain... And then there's Vain and Findail and...

Spoiler

their merging to become the new Staff of Law...

It seems that SRD created more than a few similarities between the first and second Chronicles... Maybe Amok's secret lies in Findail and Vain somehow... somewhere lost in Time...

Seems to me that Amok is Elohim. Findail the Annoying would have no reason to mention Amok, in his arrogance and distaste for people he would give them no hint as to Amok for fear of revealing his own purpose which he detested. Amok was equally "cheeky" regarding his purpose. I can only imagine what Kevin had to go through to "enchant" the cheeky little fellow. I reckon he be Elohim.

Hail simon!! Welcome!!
And hmmm, 1607 is the year of Monteverdi's Orfeo. Coincidence?

I can't imagine Kevin ever being powerful enough to enchant an Elohim. I don't think anyone could possibly do that. Foul was Corrupting the Earthpower, and therefore all the Elohim would suffer too. But enchanting one this way seems out of the question to me.

If he did, however, I'd expect the rest of the Elohim to come after him! And I don't think he'd be able to hold them off for more than a millionth of a second.

Well, unless Amok was Appointed to the task of being enchanted for that specific purpose, but to that extent the Elohim would have had to have known that the Law of Death would've been broken and the Staff of Law destroyed because of it. Which in turn allowed for Foamfollower to give Vain to Covenant in Andelain which in turn allowed for the Staff to be re-created. However, the Elohim seemed to wish that the Staff not be "reforged" so to speak. So this scenario would be highly unlikely. But on that note, the Elohim were divided as well. It could be that the corrupted Elohim were the ones against the new Staff of Law, unknowingly falling under the spell of Corruption. Wow, this gets deep, doesn't it? It could be argued either way... I'm starting to see it both ways, and I'm the one who started this thread. LOL!

If Amok was an Elohim, I'll eat my shades...


but they're special edible ones, just in case.

I don't think that what Linden did with her health sense was really different from any of the earthpower used in the first Chronicles. She didn't really understand what she was doing beyond that it was connected with her health-sense, but I think she was just using earthpower, the same as the lords. Remember, the...oh, hell, I'm not even going to try to spell it...(insert Land term for users of rock-lore here) were able to give strength to stone (among other things), and the Unfettered healer was in fact able to heal people, like Covenant. When she "extends her health-sense" and uses it for some purpose, couldn't she simply be using the old powers of the Lillianril, the you-know-what, and the Lords?

Good thinking, UrLord. You may be right. If a Gravelingas or the Healer held this new Staff and the white gold, maybe they could have done what Linden did. The new Staff was not the old Staff, after all, and we don't know how it may differ from it. It may have "given its consent" to Linden in ways that the old one was not capable of.

UrLord wrote: and the Unfettered healer was in fact able to heal people, like Covenant.

Yeah, that dawned on me as well, that what the Unfettered Healer in Morinmoss in TPTP did heal Covenant wasn't much different from what Linden did numerous times to help him. But she (the Healer) was Unfettered, free from the Oath of Peace, which allowed for things that those bound by the Oath couldn't do. Kinda proves my initial point on that issue. Good call!

I do not believe the Unfettered were free from the Oath of Peace.

"There are those from the Loresraat who find that they cannot work for the Land or the Lore of the Old Lords in the company of their fellows - Lords or Lorewardens, the followers of Sword or Staff. Those have some private vision which compels them to seek it in isolation. But their need for aloneness does not divide them from the people. They are given the Rites of Unfettering, and freed from all common demands, to quest after their own lore with the blessing of the Lords and the respect of all who live the Land.

etc. But the Oath of Peace was sworn by all people, not just those studying Lore, and I'm sure it still holds.

But like all things, isn't it open to interpretation? lol I mean reality is based on perspective, right?

Oh, certainly! I'm saying the two were not related. But by all means, let's hear your argument! Why do you think they were?

And the Oath is not viewed as a law that must be obeyed, that one can be freed from. Someone here suggested that the entire culture exerted a lot of pressure, almost forcing everyone to take the Oath. Possibly true, although I think being raised in a village where everyone talks about its principles as much as we saw would likely give the child that mindset anyway, without so much feeling pressured. But either way, the Oath is a voluntary thing, and there's no penalty for breaking it. Nobody can free you from it but yourself.

Oh I don't disagree in the slightest, but as I was saying at one point earlier, if anyone had done what Linden was able to do back in the days of the Lords, they would've most likely been accused of being a Raver until and unless proven otherwise. The Oath of Peace was not only toward the Earth but also towards all creatures living on the Earth.

Do not hurt where holding is enough;
do not wound where hurting is enough;
do not maim where wounding is enough;
and kill not where maiming is enough;
the greatest warrior is one who does not need to kill.

To enter into another being as Linden was able to do was something only done by Ravers and, in my opinion, would most likely be considered a breach of the Oath. Sure, it was taken voluntarily, but remember also everytime someone came close to breaking it, it was almost forced on them to remember the Oath. *coughTrellcoughTriockcough* Only the Haruchai, if I remember correctly, were free of the Oath in the Land. If I'm not mistaken, even the Giants believed in the Oath. Though the Oath was voluntary, it was treated almost as an extension of the Law. Therefore I had chosen to believe that the Rites of Unfettering also freed one from the Oath that the entire Land believed so strongly in. How else could they be completely free to study unknown Lore to its fullest extent?

In my eyes, everything Linden could do could also be done by those in the era of the New Lords, as proven by the Unfettered Healer in Morinmoss, however the Oath prevented them from the level of Healing that Linden was capable of just as it prevented them from mastering Kevin's Lore.

Speaking of Kevin's Lore... I wonder now what else Amok could have taught the Lords beyond the location of the Power of Command... He knew Kevin, had been given the freedom of life and of choice, had visited lands only the Giants in all the Land carried tales of. Surely he had visited the Elohim at one time or another. If Amok wasn't Elohim, I wonder what they thought of him? A being so like them, yet "born" with a sole purpose in mind, not unlike an Appointed. There could be an entire story, if not a whole new series, just based on Amok's story. *sigh* Alas, I fear his tale is lost in Time...

rillinlure wrote:To enter into another being as Linden was able to do was something only done by Ravers and, in my opinion, would most likely be considered a breach of the Oath.

I hadn't considered this before, but I think you're right.

rillinlure wrote:Therefore I had chosen to believe that the Rites of Unfettering also freed one from the Oath that the entire Land believed so strongly in. How else could they be completely free to study unknown Lore to its fullest extent?

I'd think they would go about it the way Mhoram did in the time after TPTP, looking for "lore which is not so apt for destruction ... lore in which the Oath of Peace and the preservation of the Land live together." After all, they didn't realize that, by taking the Oath, they had "inured themselves to the power of Kevin's Lore." But when an Unfettered goes off alone for decades, away from everyone "forcing them to remember the Oath," which is a valid way of putting it, I could see them abandoning it. Even without consciously deciding to.

You mention the non-Oath-bound Bloodguard. Am I the only one who thinks the New Lords should have refused their service? Kevin tried to, but the Giants helped him understand and accept it. But the New had a stronger reason to refuse it - it violated their Oath. I'm not entirely comfortable with the morality of saying "I will not harm if I can avoid it. I will not kill where maiming is enough. -- So you go kill him."

rillinlure wrote:Speaking of Kevin's Lore... I wonder now what else Amok could have taught the Lords beyond the location of the Power of Command... He knew Kevin, had been given the freedom of life and of choice, had visited lands only the Giants in all the Land carried tales of. Surely he had visited the Elohim at one time or another. If Amok wasn't Elohim, I wonder what they thought of him? A being so like them, yet "born" with a sole purpose in mind, not unlike an Appointed. There could be an entire story, if not a whole new series, just based on Amok's story. *sigh* Alas, I fear his tale is lost in Time...

Amok actually mentions having hung out with the Elohim. My thought was that he must have driven them up the wall! The fact that he survived visiting them must mean that this act of Kevin's was of extraordinary power, even enough to hold off the Elohim!

Fist and Faith wrote:I'd think they would go about it the way Mhoram did in the time after TPTP, looking for "lore which is not so apt for destruction ... lore in which the Oath of Peace and the preservation of the Land live together."

Not necessarily, Atiaran begins explaining the Unfettered to Covenant for the first time after the bloodshed in Andelain (LFB).

"But the Unfettered. Some are dreamers, some healers, some share the life of the animals. Some delve the earth to uncover the secrets of the Cavewights, others learn the lore of the Demondim -- whatever knowledge guides the One's private prophecies. I have heard it whispered that some Unfettered follow the legend of Caerroil Wildwood of Garroting Deep, and become Forestals. But that is a perilous thought, even when whispered."

The secrets of the Cavewights and Lore of the Demondim would not necessarily follow along the lines of the Oath of Peace. And Caerroil Wildwood definitely had no use for the Oath. Look at who he chose for his apprentice: a man not of this world, a man who had never sworn the Oath and had no use for it himself.

Fist and Faith wrote:You mention the non-Oath-bound Bloodguard. Am I the only one who thinks the New Lords should have refused their service? Kevin tried to, but the Giants helped him understand and accept it. But the New had a stronger reason to refuse it - it violated their Oath. I'm not entirely comfortable with the morality of saying "I will not harm if I can avoid it. I will not kill where maiming is enough. -- So you go kill him."

Oh sure, they should've denied the Bloodguard. It would've been just as easy to say, "Well, if you want to help defend us, then that's all well and good. We could use a few good fighters. But that Vow is completely unnecessary." But the New Lords were in awe of Kevin and all their predecessors. They instead said, "Hey wow! These guys knew Kevin! How cool is that!" And in accepting the Bloodguard's service, they most likely felt it brought them a little closer to Kevin himself, whom they were trying to emulate. But that brings another question to mind... Kevin gave the First Ward to the Giants to give back to the New Lords after the ruin of the Desecration had begun to pass. Does it not stand to reason that possibly Kevin gave a Ward to the Bloodguard as well? The Bloodguard already proven they could keep a secret with the secret of the Power of Command.

Fist and Faith wrote:Amok actually mentions having hung out with the Elohim. My thought was that he must have driven them up the wall! The fact that he survived visiting them must mean that this act of Kevin's was of extraordinary power, even enough to hold off the Elohim!

Well, there seem to be very few beings who can control or coerce the Elohim in any way, considering they are beings of pure Earthpower. Foul, but only by corrupting the Earthpower. Of course that's not to say he couldn't go one on one with one and come out on top. Covenant possibly, because of the white gold. Vain, which raises the question of whether he alone of the Demondim-spawn was able because of his "perfection", or whether the Demondim-spawn were all that "Lore-wise". Quite possibly Kevin, with the Staff of Law, could have created a being able to hold his own against the Elohim. It could be that that's how Amok gained his Elohim-ish "personality". If you spend enough time around a group of people, you naturally pick up their traits. I hadn't thought of that till you mentioned he might drive them crazy.

But I wonder... By natural Law, a creature should be born by natural means. Artificial creation of life would almost certainly break the Law, wouldn't it? Even the Demondim and various Demondim-spawn didn't artificially create life; they engaged in "breeding experiments" using the life that was already there. That would stand to reason that Kevin didn't so much "create" Amok, but instead used a living volunteer, possibly another Lord or some other servant of the Land, and using the Staff and his own Lore gave this person extended longevity, knowledge of the Earthblood and it's location, enough power to defend himself against almost anything, and instructions on what to do and not to do when summoned by the New Lords. Some of the things Amok was able to do could've been learned during his travels, such as his ability to become invisible.

Hey wow... a long post... LOL!

Fist and Faith wrote:You mention the non-Oath-bound Bloodguard. Am I the only one who thinks the New Lords should have refused their service?

Flinch.

From the standpoint of the Oath of Peace, looking at it from the morality of the New Lords themselves, to refuse the service would have been the most consistent thing to do.

I still don't think the New Lords should have refused it.

First, even in our world, some cultures practicing ahimsa do not forbid making use of the results of another person's violence, e.g., eating meat carries a lesser penalty than being a butcher.

Second, the Vow was still binding, whether or not it had recipients. To have left the Bloodguard hanging from it in midair would have been unspeakably cruel. As long as their service was being received, no price was too great; the mere thought of such renunciation being useless (though still irrevocable) curls my toes.

Accepting a gift honors the giver; refusing this gift, however righteously, imho, would have risked honoring rules more than human beings.

The gift that keeps on giving, eh? *snicker* If the New Lords had accepted the service of the Bloodguard but denied the Vow, then maybe things would have turned out differently during the Battle of Revelstone. Possibly some of the Haruchai would have stayed around to help defend the grand seat of all power in the Land. Covenant was just as instrumental as Foul in teaching the Bloodguard how the Vow could be corrupted, had been corrupted even before Foul sunk his claws into the Bloodguard, by pointing out the paradox of the Vow itself. While maybe you are correct in saying that it would have been cruel to refuse the gift of the Bloodguard's service and Vow, in the end wasn't the accepting of their service and Vow even more cruel...?

rillinlure wrote:Hey wow... a long post... LOL!

Sweet!!

rillinlure wrote:The secrets of the Cavewights and Lore of the Demondim would not necessarily follow along the lines of the Oath of Peace. And Caerroil Wildwood definitely had no use for the Oath. Look at who he chose for his apprentice: a man not of this world, a man who had never sworn the Oath and had no use for it himself.

!! Good points! Yeah, if Atiaran's right about these examples, and she was about other Unfettered, it looks like some of them did, indeed, abandon the Oath. (Either that, or they failed miserably in their quests to learn these other Lores, just as the New Lords failed to learn Kevin's.)

rillinlure wrote:But the New Lords were in awe of Kevin and all their predecessors. They instead said, "Hey wow! These guys knew Kevin! How cool is that!" And in accepting the Bloodguard's service, they most likely felt it brought them a little closer to Kevin himself, whom they were trying to emulate.

Yeah, that could certainly help explain it.

rillinlure wrote:But that brings another question to mind... Kevin gave the First Ward to the Giants to give back to the New Lords after the ruin of the Desecration had begun to pass. Does it not stand to reason that possibly Kevin gave a Ward to the Bloodguard as well? The Bloodguard already proven they could keep a secret with the secret of the Power of Command.

The difference is that the Bloodguard would never have gone along with it, if they knew what Kevin was up to. I cannot imagine what he said to the Giants to make them give up the war, take the ward, and go to sea. (Furls Fire, guess what I'm thinking!!! ) But whatever it was, it definitely wouldn't have worked on the Bloodguard. He would have had to give them a song and a dance about something or other.

rillinlure wrote:Well, there seem to be very few beings who can control or coerce the Elohim in any way, considering they are beings of pure Earthpower. Foul, but only by corrupting the Earthpower. Of course that's not to say he couldn't go one on one with one and come out on top. Covenant possibly, because of the white gold. Vain, which raises the question of whether he alone of the Demondim-spawn was able because of his "perfection", or whether the Demondim-spawn were all that "Lore-wise".

Great topic!! Just who could take on an Elohim? We never would have come up with a being like Vain before the 2nd Chrons came out, yet there he is, and I think he could do well against just one. What about Kasreyn?

rillinlure wrote:But I wonder... By natural Law, a creature should be born by natural means. Artificial creation of life would almost certainly break the Law, wouldn't it? Even the Demondim and various Demondim-spawn didn't artificially create life; they engaged in "breeding experiments" using the life that was already there. That would stand to reason that Kevin didn't so much "create" Amok, but instead used a living volunteer, possibly another Lord or some other servant of the Land, and using the Staff and his own Lore gave this person extended longevity, knowledge of the Earthblood and it's location, enough power to defend himself against almost anything, and instructions on what to do and not to do when summoned by the New Lords. Some of the things Amok was able to do could've been learned during his travels, such as his ability to become invisible.

"A living volunteer"!?!?!! WOW! What a fascinating thought!! Never crossed my mind!! Yup, THIS is why I love the Watch so much!

But I'm not willing to speculate on the limitations of natural Law under the Arch of Time. SRD could make it anything at all. And as for Amok being "alive," that's something even he would not answer. I believe he was AI. But AL? Can we define intelligence in such a way that it need not be alive?

Durris wrote:the Vow was still binding, whether or not it had recipients. To have left the Bloodguard hanging from it in midair would have been unspeakably cruel. As long as their service was being received, no price was too great; the mere thought of such renunciation being useless (though still irrevocable) curls my toes.

Accepting a gift honors the giver; refusing this gift, however righteously, imho, would have risked honoring rules more than human beings.

So you're saying that any gift that is offered MUST be accepted? No matter what it costs you to accept it? I don't think we should be bound in such ways. The Haruchai made an offer that, imo, was outside of the New Lord's Oath-driven morality, and I don't think they should have felt obligated to accept. (Of course, they didn't see it the way I do. )

rillinlure wrote:While maybe you are correct in saying that it would have been cruel to refuse the gift of the Bloodguard's service and Vow, in the end wasn't the accepting of their service and Vow even more cruel...?

Another good point. They all assumed the Vow would last forever, but since it DID end, the length of it just rubbed salt into the wound.

"Ah, Bannor," he sighed. "Are you so ashamed of what you were?"

Bannor cocked a white eyebrow at the question, as if it came close to the truth. "I am not shamed," he said distinctly. "But I am saddened that so many centuries were required to teach us the limits of our worth. We went too far, in pride and folly. Mortal men should not give up wives and sleep and death for any service - lest the face of failure become too abhorrent to be endured."