Kevin's Watch

I agree urvile. SRD says quite clearly though, that he intended that the classic roles of hero, villain and victim would change throughout the books. Anyone want to venture as to when Morn stopped being the victim? And beyond that question, did she become a hero or villain?

I think Angus or Warden are the biggest heros of them all... But Angus saved Warden... The Government... And UMCPHQ... and many other things... Warden saved the human race from Holt... Though I don't know if he should have...

I think that when Donaldson came up with the ideas for many of the characters in these books, he intended them to be just regular human beings with regular or irregular problems in their lives. None of them are supposed to be heroes in the series, but when put in the extraordinary situation with GCES, UMC, and the Amnion, they all do their best when facing their harsh pasts and deep rooted problems.

What would you do under stress/confusion/fatigue conditions?
Would you fight for what you think is right, (UMCP)
or switch to a different mode of perspective? (Like Vector and Agnus)

I think Nick hit this on the nail in the above post.
Mr. Donaldson may had just picked regular characters
and placed them on an extraordinary journey,
then desided on how they would react to the problems that they faced.
(And discovering themselves in the process.)
IMO

One of the staples of fiction has been to place ordinary people in extraordinary situations, as Nick points out. It serves the purpose of giving the reader characters they can identify with, whilst at the same time not prohibiting the escapism that many people seek through reading. SRD often puts a twist on this tradition by taking dysfunctional indivuals and placing them in extraordinary situations. By doing this, the reader is forced to work harder to identify with the characters (hands up who thought Covenant was a complete ass for the first two books), but I think on the whole it provides a more rewarding experience.

I'd have to say Warden, for his self-sacrifice. He set events in motion knowing that he would be destroyed in the culmination (ye gods I love that word) of his plan.

Reynard Ashmelayn wrote:I'd have to say Warden, for his self-sacrifice. He set events in motion knowing that he would be destroyed in the culmination (ye gods I love that word) of his plan.

I would go with Warden as well. He knew what had to be done and he did it.

I think each character can be said to have their moments of heroism. Morn certainly does, and so does Angus.

Probably the most heroic character is Warden though, who decides to take responsibility for the wrongs he had commited, as well as those of his master.

I was pleasantly surprised with Hashi's bit of heroism, near the end of the story.

The hero of the Lord of the Rings is "the Fellowship" as a group, with supporting cast. For the Gap its "Trumpet's people" with supporting cast.

Baradakas wrote:I agree urvile. SRD says quite clearly though, that he intended that the classic roles of hero, villain and victim would change throughout the books. Anyone want to venture as to when Morn stopped being the victim? And beyond that question, did she become a hero or villain?

I don't think she was ever fully a victim. She fought to the best of her ability all along. I think of a victim as someone who surrenders to the terrible things that have happened. I doubt the dictionary supports me on that one, but there is definitely a "victim mindset" that Morn never sunk to.

Warmark Troy wrote:The hero of the Lord of the Rings is "the Fellowship" as a group, with supporting cast. For the Gap its "Trumpet's people" with supporting cast.

The problem I (in retrospect) have with LOTR, which is absent in TC and Gap, is the notion that good guys are altruistic. I think most people waver a lot when called upon to be heroic. I liked that aspect of the Gap - quite a bit of "how can I figure out how to survive this next 15 minutes?" instead of "how can I advance the grand scheme of good vs. evil?"

This is what I like about Donaldsons Gap work. There are no black and white characters. They're grey. Whom the reader thinks of as a hero depends entirely on the reader himself. Whereas in other stories, LOTR, Harry Potter, it's obvious who are the hero's and who is the villian's.

Darth Revan wrote:This is what I like about Donaldsons Gap work. There are no black and white characters. They're grey. Whom the reader thinks of as a hero depends entirely on the reader himself. Whereas in other stories, LOTR, Harry Potter, it's obvious who are the hero's and who is the villian's.

Agreed.

Martin wrote: Whom the reader thinks of as a hero depends entirely on the reader himself. Whereas in other stories, LOTR, Harry Potter, it's obvious who are the hero's and who is the villian's.

I'm gonna go with that too. Having almost finished the series I am so into Angus that to me he is the absolute center and most dominant character off all. Angus is my hero. I am totally floored with these last two books.

Warden and Min are my heroes, But a BIG tip o' the hat goes to Angus, especially for unplugging Holt's Mom.

Warden, Min and Morn, definitely.

I have trouble seeing Angus as a hero, though he did much to redeem himself in the end. Don't get me wrong, he's an awesome character. He started out in the series as a complete monster, then gained an incredible amount of power, and eventually became a better person. I just flat-out don't like him.

I blame this mainly on TRS, and acknowledge that I have something of a double standard. The first book I read was Chaos and Order, and my favorite character has always been Sorus Chatelaine. Even after reading TRS, which I wanted to throw across the room at times. (Yes, I know I'm in the minority here. I'd go into more detail, but I'm venturing off topic as it is.)

So, Warden, Min and Morn. And Vector. And maybe even Sib. What defines a hero? In the Gap series, I'd say it's anyone who does the right thing at the right time, regardless of what it will cost them on a personal level. Seen that way, I'd probably have to include Angus, at least in TDAGD.

While it is true that people change "roles" throughout this story, was there ever a point where Holt could have been thought of as a hero? Milos? Marc?

Nick - Was he really a good guy in the beginning, pushed over to the dark side by Morn's betrayal? Or was he really only in it for himself, and treating his people fairly not because it was the right thing to do, but because it was an effective way to run his ship and get ahead? Not even his crew knew about his drug, remember.

The Amnion. Are they truly an Evil adversary? Or are they a force of "nature" - e.g. the classic "Man vs Nature" plot, as opposed to "Man vs Man" and "Man vs Himself", which are abundanly evident in the Gap (at least as subplots). Maybe they are more like an earthquake, tsunami, or "natural" plague. The favorites in movies a few years ago were falling rocks (Armageddon, Deep impact), then volcanoes (Dante's Peak, Volcano). From that standpoint, attempts to analyze them, their society, and/or their motivations, would almost be a distraction, at least in the short term. (For a similar adversary, consider the Descolada in Orson Scott Card's "Speaker for the Dead" series.) Now, in "reality" they are probably much more (as are the Descolada), but for purposes of analyizing THIS story, I think this is how they can be viewed.

Warden, Min, Morn, Davies, Vector, Mikka, Angus, and even Hashi, all worked for the greater good in the end (and much of the time leading up to it), whether they wanted to or not in the beginning. They are the people you are truly rooting for most of the time. You can be mad at them for particular actions, but in the end, you WANT them to succeed. I think that makes them the heroes in the story-telling sense.

Sorus is an interesting case - last minute redemption. Not really a hero, but a redeemed baddie.

Mikka's brother - a confused child, not intriniscly evil, wanting to do good, but duped into doing the wrong thing.

The Bill - a neutral. Not evil, but no hero either. Completely amoral except that he expects to be paid for his services. I think, if his work weren't illegal, he would be just as happy to serve UMCP customers as pirates and the Amnion.

I do don't believe that there are any REAL heroes in the GAP cycle. I think SRD intended it to be that way. Everyone is compromised to some degree or another, it's simply a matter of who rises to the occassion to meet their destiny head-on. That being said however, if SRD were to reply to this thread, I believe he would tell you that if you believe Angus, or any other character to be the hero of the story, then you're right!

I disagree. I think SRD's view of 'hero', although different from the Aragorn-type, is still a HERO. They are people who overcome internal and external adversity to rise above their weeknesses for a greater good.
Warden Dios, Min Donner and Morn Hyland are such strong heros in this sense for me, that they are my top 3 candidates for HERO!!!
Angus comes in there a bit, but I still question his motives as being primarily selfish, therefore I do not consider him a 'hero' ...
(totally personal choise, as I know many love this character. I do to!... but I just don't classify him as a 'hero' per se....