The Seven Words of Power--breaking down the Old Lanquage

[danlo]

Very cool Ahanna! These things may make more sense than we, or SRD, realize! On a very quick web search I found some interesting things about "Melen". There is a Finnish, or mayb an Icelandic, peak called Melen with what looks 2 b a legend connected w/it--maybe Nerdanel can translate it--called the Byat Hiraz, or something like that: vazgectimsenden.sitemynet.com Melen also seems to b used as a last name in the French Pyrennees & Spain. And aslo seems b an Arabic and Hispanic last name, 2 some degree. It's a common usage word and last name in Belgium, France and Germany...

[Variol Farseer]

So, what you're saying is that the son of a doctor, who has worked in a hospital for two years and has a language university degree does not recognize Melenkurion as Greek?

Not at all. What I'm saying is that he didn't borrow the word from Greek. At most, he borrowed the sound of the word.

SRD is an author who very often uses words for their sound, almost irrespective of their meaning. How many times does he describe the ur-viles as roynish? An utterly obscure word, not found even in most unabridged dictionaries. And if you check the OED, you find that it's a variation of roinish, meaning 'Covered with scale or scurf; scabby, scurvy, coarse, mean, paltry, base.' In other words, it means either that the ur-viles are covered with scales or scabs (neither of which fits their description), or that SRD wants to rub in the fact that he considers them contemptible & you ought to, too. And he doesn't seem to care whether you can figure out what the insult means or not. But doesn't roynish have a splendidly insulting sound to it?

I'm being hard on SRD on this one, because I think this habitual use of grotesquely obscure words as leitmotivs is one of the few real weaknesses of his style. (In his younger days, at least. The Gap and Reave the Just are more or less free from this kind of verbal impasto.) But I hope you can see my point: if roynish, a real English word, is used without any reference to scabs or scales (and in fact with hardly any discoverable meaning at all), then it's quite easy to suppose that Melenkurion, a hypothetical compound not (as far as I know) occurring in actual Greek, could be derived or used without reference to what it would mean in Greek if it were an actual word.

It is worth remembering, too, that most of the allegedly Greek words in our technical vocabulary aren't Greek at all, but merely artificial compounds made by gluing Greek roots together in ungrammatical ways. Also, that physicians aren't required to study Greek in medical school or even in pre-med. Nor are English majors. If SRD had a degree in Classics, I'd readily concede your point. But Greek doesn't seem to be a language he is much conversant with or even particularly interested in.

[amanibhavam]

I certainly agree with you Farseer (although roynish isn't at all that difficult to find, even Shakespeare used it, certainly Webster's has the word; if I, poor old Hungarian user here at the other end of the world could find it...): SRD doesn't really choose the words for their meaning; he wants them to raise associations in our subconcious; that's why we have Hebrew-sounding names for the Ravers, for instance: it raises obscure memories of Old Testamental demons; we have Sanskrit-sounding words and names for the Waynhim, to imply their meekness, peaceful nature... etc.

SRD is no Tolkien, not interested in creating coherent language systems for his created world; he doesn't even bother to explain how TC is capable of understanding the Land's tongue (where Tolkien would've taken great pains to find a way to harmonize the two worlds in this aspect, too).

[Vain]

Don't know about the rest of you guys but I am enjoying this topic HUGELY. on

[Skyweir]

Farseer and Amy make good points worth noting and reminded me of a discussion on another board about Zindell's creative licence re: the word 'fenestering' .. it originated from his own individual creative genius .. its not a word .. it doesnt exist in the english language and may well not in any other global language [contemporary or classic].. and probably even parts of it may or may not be traced back to any particular language that exists in any language that we may choose as a frame of reference ..

Quite often authors create words that have no direct meaning .. but as amy says .. the sound of the word/or its conjugation of parts appeals to the author/creator and that thing it is used to describe .. these creations do speak to the subconscious mind of the reader ..

[duchess of malfi]

I think there were probably several languages at work in the Old Land, which might complicate things for us, too. The Lords have their language, the Huruchai at the very least also have their own language. I think that the Waynhim and ur-Viles and Giants might have had their own languages. I'm not sure about the Ramen or Cavewights, but that's possible, too. And, like in any world, all of those languages would have impacted on each other and borrowed terms from each other. So when we're doing our group reread we're going to have to look carefully at the unfamiliar words and ask -- who says this? What's the context? A word used by Korik in Gildenfire might be Huruchai rather than Old Lord. A word used by one of the Waynhim in the second chronicles might be in their own language. We're gong to have to study this very closely and carefully. And its going to be very, very, very fun! This is already a wonderful thread!

[kaseryn]

I'm inclined to agree with Farseer and Aman on this.. i've always assumed the languages used int the Land to be more about impressions than anything else.. as Aman said.. Hebrew for the Ravers names has great connotations.. biblical if u like.. giving u sense of them being an ancient evil. Stuff like Lorliarill etc always seemed quite Welsh to me.. which has its own mytholigical associations. But consider also, the proximity of Welsh and Tolkiens Elfin languages.. a derivation dutifully observed ever since - could it be more apt ? It doesn't matter that SD hasn't created new complete languages for the series that can be used as a sole basis of communication at conventions by the faithful.. his pastiche works very well.. its creative and in sly way pretty powerful.

Roynish is a brilliant word.. i have no idea what i think it means.. what it says to me.. but i love it. Another fav word of his seems to be crepuscular, meaning twighlight, and damned right i had to look that one up the first time !! lol I love language and SD's use of it for me is definitely one of the things that make the chrons my fav books bar none. Another word i love i owe to him is celerity.. for speed - brilliant, just brilliant

[pitchwife]

Brilliant Ahanna!
Fascinating! I love your interpretation! I don't really care if SRD had not intended a specific meaning for those words. Your ideas just fit together perfectly. Wasn't it SRD who said that it is the story that seeks a writer? Well maybe the writer isn't aware about every little detail in the story. It's all there in the global consciousness he is drawing from.

-pitch

[duchess of malfi]

Ahanna ,I love your theory, but I question if the second ward is the ward of earth or the ward of fire. It is in a volcano, the only one in the Land, as far as I know, and the only home of the Fire Lions. Also, it is protected by a sheet of flame placed there by Kevin. It IS deep under the ground, though...I could see it going either way.

[Guest]

I've been thinking about this. Maybe the reason Kevin placed the Second Ward in Mount Thunder is because it is a place where two of the elements, earth and fire, meet. It might be a nexus of power because the two meet there. So where would the other Wards be hidden? Maybe in other places like that, where two or more elements come together to create a place of special power OR where special creatures, such as the Fire Lions are found. Maybe the sixth ward would be in Andelain, and be the Ward of Light because the Wraiths are found there. When the Lords Light up the Krill, then the last Ward, Command is revealed. And I've always wondered if there's a special power in Andelain, both in the First and Second Chronicles (besides Hile Troy). There always seemed to be something special going on there. Other Wards might be hidden in places like the seashore (water and earth) or a waterfall (air and water). And who's to say that all Seven are in the Land? Maybe Kevin might have asked the Giants for a lift somewhere in a ship? Amok seemed to range all over the world.

[Foamfollower1013]

Ahanna, that is brilliant. I really like that interpretation...it may be a stretch but it makes sense!

But consider also, the proximity of Welsh and Tolkiens Elfin languages..

Actually, Finnish was one of Tolkien's main inspirations when he was creating Quenya...although he may have been influenced by Welsh as well...

This is a fascinating thread. I love languages.

~Foamy~

[amanibhavam]

OFF:

to be more exact, Quenya was inspired by Finnish and Latin (and a host of other languages like Hebrew, old Indo-European etc.), while Sindarin is most alike to Welsh

ON

[Guest]

Just curious, but can anyone answer a couple of quick questions? How many languages did Tolkein know? He was a languages professor, so I would think he would know quite a few? But do any of you know how many and which ones?
And how many languages does Donaldson know? If he only knows English and smatterings of whatever languages they spoke in India in the area where he lived as a child, we might be giving him a bit too much credit for general knowledge in various tongues such as Latin, Greek, and Hebrew?

[caamora]

I am enjoying this thread immensely! I just wish I had something intelligent to add! I'm not that well versed on languages. Now, if you wanted to talk about Ancient Roman history, well....

[Lord Mhoram]

No, I dont think Donaldson was a philologist...but Vain gave us a link about names in TCTC that relate to words in other languages...

[Ahanna]

Perhaps it's futile, but I just can't keep my hands off this interesting topic.

I searched for Hindi words and came up with this: (Note that since Hindi characters are very different from Western, there are several ways of spelling the words. I chose the words which seemed most similar to SRD's).
Durhisitar the Waynhim (Dr^ishh'Tasaar) means "Of tried prowess".
Dhuba (Daaba) – Sword belt
Vraith (Varat) – Hornet
Drhami (Dharani) – Compassion
Dhraga (Dr ^ig) – Power of Sight
Ghohritsar (Ghr^itaachi) – Fairy
Ghramin (Gramiin) – Villager
Dhurng (Dhaarnk) - Virtuous
Khabaal (Kapaal) means Destiny. Nim (as in Nimoram) is a bitter remedy that treats leprosy (among other things), and oraanaa means "To be completed or to bring to an end". Nim-oraanaa (yes, very far fetched!) could mean something like "a bitter cure that must be endured".
Abatha (Abaddha) means bound, imprisoned or confined (so, it is possible to interpret "Melenkurion abatha" as "Lord of Darkness I bind you" Nota Bene that you can interpret this in many different ways, or refrain from doing so claiming that these words don't really mean anything. Both approaches are quite acceptable to me).

I agree that SRD primarily uses association for his inventions, but he does occasionally use real Hindi words (especially where Waynhim are concerned). If you know what a word means, it would seem very awkward to use it in a totally inappropriate sense. If e.g. Abatha was a Hindi word for "spicy sausage", I doubt SRD would use it as a Word of Power – but then again, perhaps he would? Has the chronicles ever been translated to Hindi? And in that case how would you deal with words that give a certain association to one ethnic or religious group, and a very different one to another? The example of Ur- as in Ur-lord actually made me wince a little when I read it in this context, because to me it gives a definite association of "original, primitive, earliest" since that's what this prefix signifies in my own language (Swedish). To most Americans, this would probably not mean anything in particular, and they are therefore free to interpret it at will. Still, SRD may well have borrowed this prefix, and either didn't know or didn't care about it's true meaning. The danger in using words in this fashion (inspired by other existing languages or cultures) lies in the fact that every individual's frame of association is limited by their personal knowledge, background and experience.

I could use this example: a couple of years ago, a French friend of mine explained the hidden implications in an old Asterix&Obelix comic book. I hadn't realized that practically every phrase was referring to some sort of internal joke, a complex pun or a paraphrase of some concept, a popular song or event which was well-known (in Belgium/France) at the time it was written (in this case, the sixties). This is an example of extremely associative writing. With the passing of time, many such associations are lost since no one remembers them anymore, or they have come to mean something completely different. So, it's important to establish whether we speak of general or specific association, and wherein the difference lies. To some people, the association is vague, to others clear. In some cases association of a single word may diverge to signify the opposite for two different individuals.

Translating associative words that don't really exist must be a nightmare (or a real challenge). I would be very interested in Amy's opinion on the Hungarian translation. It would take an extremely sensitive, competent and inventive translator to do justice to SRD's work.

After having read all 6 chronicles in English, I borrowed a translated copy from sheer curiosity. I wanted to see how the translator would choose to interpret the abundant archaic, symbolic or associative words into another language. The result was utter disappointment and in some cases pure horror! All "difficult" words or paragraphs had been completely omitted, in some cases, this removal of entire passages made the text incomprehensible. Also, the translation in general was crude, childish, uninventive and sometimes right out misunderstood. The Wraiths of Andelain was for example translated to the Swedish equivalent of "Scary Ghouls", and Lord Foul's Bane was translated to something akin to "Prince Mockery's Curse". Now, if you take a quick look in a dictionary, this translation may not necessarily be incorrect, but it certainly results in a very twisted chain of association.

[kaseryn]

Great points Ahanna. I've got a copy of Proust's recherche on the shelf that i meant to read.. but for just the sort of reasons you discuss i became increasingly loathe to read it. It seems almost impossible to translate a lot of things the associations of which are quite culturally grounded and the more subtle the work obviously the more futile the attempt. The association element is of course to a large extent subjective, as accounts for so many different interpretations of things even from western native english speakers. If anything i'm probably a little guilty even of neglecting the details of the text to suit preconceptions or things i've read earlier in the books that suit more my thus far formed notions. But generally.. i think a lot of it works. I mean, we could probably all pick out crappy cliche names and words in an inferior text couldn't we ? So what standard would we be using then ? There must be some sort of consensus, at least to those from the same cultural meileu as SRD himself. But translation - gah ! lol

[danlo]

(this might b the thread u're refering 2...)

[Fist and Faith]

mercy buckets

[amanibhavam]

Just curious, but can anyone answer a couple of quick questions? How many languages did Tolkein know? He was a languages professor, so I would think he would know quite a few? But do any of you know how many and which ones?
And how many languages does Donaldson know? If he only knows English and smatterings of whatever languages they spoke in India in the area where he lived as a child, we might be giving him a bit too much credit for general knowledge in various tongues such as Latin, Greek, and Hebrew?

well, not sure, but he knew Modern, Middle and Old English, Welsh, Gothic, Old Icelandic, Old Norse, Latin, Greek, German I think and to some extent Italian, French, Spanish, Finnish