Kevin's Watch

It seems the lady was mistaken. Amazon tells me that latest edition came out a month ago. I ordered, but it's minimum 8-9 days dispatch - that means I'll miss at least the first dissection chapter

dANdeLION wrote:

MsMaryMalone wrote:

Myste wrote:One of the things I love about SRD is his ability to write characters who are utterly loathsome--and then he forces you to empathize with them. You might not be able to forgive them, but you end up understanding them, even pitying them, in spite of yourself. Lebbick's like that; so is Angus Thermopyle; even TC is like that to a certain extent.

I don't find Lebbick utterly loathesome at all. I pity him, to tell the truth. He is a person trying to do his job and being thwarted at every turn. Not that I think his behavior is justfied. And as the Tor points out, he is "prone to excess."

Not to split hairs (well, actually it IS to split hairs ), but when I read these two comments, I only see agreement. Clearly Lebbick does loathsome things, and clearly we all end up understanding why he does it, even if we don't agree at all with him doing it, which leads to us pitying him.

Maybe it is splitting hairs, Dan, but I don't interpret being loathesome as the same thing as doing loathesome things. Lebbick is not an intrinsically loathesome character, IMO.

~MsMary~

Ahh, ok. I think he is, but that's just an opinion.

Really? You think Lebbick is intrinsically loathesome? I am curious as to why. I think he is a victim of the situation (unlike, for example, Thermopyle, who is pretty loathesome to start with).

I really do not think Lebbick could be described as loathsome - bitter certainly, but not loathsome.

...doesn't understand dAN...

danlo wrote:I've always looked at Lebbick the same way MsMary does, Myste seems to be generalizing.

Spoiler

Now Gilbur on the other hand...

Well, I was generalizing, sort of...Excuses can be made for all three characters I mentioned--Lebbick was being deliberately pushed into madness, Angus suffered terrible abuse at the hand of his own mother, and TC was just completely out of his depth on just about every level. All three had reasons for behaving loathsomely (is that a word??), and it's those reasons that inspire the pity I feel for them. Those reasons don't justify the rapine and abuse these characters inflict on others; the reasons just explain them.

The real villains here aren't loathsome, IMHO, anymore than they're despicable (like the Armigite). They're just hateful in all the best ways.

MsMaryMalone wrote:Really? You think Lebbick is intrinsically loathesome? I am curious as to why. I think he is a victim of the situation (unlike, for example, Thermopyle, who is pretty loathesome to start with).

Lebbick became loathsome due to his imprisonment and wife's abuse. She was the only thing keeping him from being as bad as he was much sooner. Joyce took advantage of his savagery, etc; but as far as we know, Lebbick had a normal childhood. Angus became loathsome due to the extremely abusive nature of his childhood. My thinking is that abuse as a child leaves much more of an impression, and is much more likely to adversely affect a person's behavior permanently. Therefore, I would hold Lebbick to a higher standard than I would Angus. Both were victims, both were predators. But Lebbick had a much better chance to stay the man he originally was than Angus ever did to even become the man he could have been.

dANdeLION wrote:I would hold Lebbick to a higher standard than I would Angus. Both were victims, both were predators.

This is true.

dAndeLION wrote:But Lebbick had a much better chance to stay the man he originally was than Angus ever did to even become the man he could have been.

Also true. This is why Lebbick worries me. The stuff that happened to Lebbick happened later in his life than it did to Angus; and as terrible as it was, it wasn't ongoing, systematic abuse over a period of years, the way Angus's was. But it is possible that

Spoiler

Lebbick was just about ready to do to Terisa what Angus did to Morn. (Though without the slavery of the zone implant.)

I'm not sure Lebbick has the excuse that Angus does.

Which actually does bring up another interesting question, separate from the loathsomeness issue--which I suppose could be saved for AMRT Dissection:

Spoiler

Would Lebbick have raped Terisa if he had the chance?

...understands dAN better now...