Weren't the Amnion cool?

Post by **danlo** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 12:30 am

I believe human-like intelligence can be achieved by a hive mind. Read The Green Brain by Frank Herbert 4 more on that theory!

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:35 am

That depends on your definition of hive mind, Pitchwife. For example, in Olaf Stapledon's Last and Future Men, he presents a hive mind comprised of individuals contributing their own uniqueness. Individuality was retained, and they pooled their consciousness together. In this sense, the hive was a gestalt consciousness. Other books/films present anotehr variation of a hive mind - one in which there is no individuality, and each and every being is directed by some uber-consciousness. I agree with Danlo - the Amnion had individuality. I know Vestabule and Taverner were once human, but they were individualistic. Further, the birthing doctor on enablement seemed to possess some degree of individuality. I mean, he acted autonomously and communicated to others. What I am suggesting is that the Amnion have an imperative, namely genetic hegemony over all life, and this drives them. I suppose it may be as profound as some psychological processes we possess. In this sense, Amnion act in accord. Perhaps this is a hive-mentality - a common desire? Further, it was suggested in Chaos and Order they may communicate via pheromones. Maybe this is their link to a communal experience (for want of a better word).

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:11 am

I think a few of our behaviours are genetically driven. In that I mean the automatic responses. The startle reflex, classic and operant conditioning - all these are directed by our makeup. It also depends on what you mean as 'intelligent', pitchwife. My definition is the capacity to perform complex thought. But does make us more important than many 'lower' animals? Bees are remarkably efficient animals, and do not need intelligence to function. I'm sure the Amnion process sensory information, have memories and act on what they think, unlike insects and other 'lower' animals. In my mind there is no doubt the Amnion would have minds. However, their genetic and epigenetic make up may mean they have different behaviours. We have our own behaviours that are genetically directed.
At the risk of sounding too reductionist, I will state that many of our states of mind are heavily influenced by hormones. Hormones are manufactured by cells and rely upon genetic codes. A human lacking a certain hormone, say Serotonin, will suffer from a whole host of disorders not the least of which is depression. I can go on. Varying the levels of hormones in our brain results in varying psychological effects. Perhaps the Amnion's different genetic makeup means they also possess alien minds . . .

Post by **pitchwife** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 1:19 am

Funny that you mentioned Frank Herbert, danlo, I just picked up 'Dune' from the library today. I have a confession to make, except for Tolkien which I read a long long time ago, and SRD, I haven't read any Fantsy or SF

. But I'm trying to get educated...
-pitch

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:08 am

What do I mean by intelligence, boy that's a tough one. I guess the most basic components of inteligence are memory and reasoning, then there's also generalization. How's that for a start? Does intelligence make humans more important? of course not, it just makes us more successful in adapting and surviving.

Back to the hive mind. I'm reading an interesting book: "Global Brain" by Howard Bloom. He describes an experiment that was done with a bee hive (page 35):

...an experiment in which bees were given an inadvertent group IQ test. A dish of sweetened water was placed outside the hive. The buzzing fliers soon found it and, following the leader, concentrated their collective attention on mining every glucose molecule the dish contained. The next day, the dish was moved to a location twice as far from the hive. The bees used three of those tricks which make a group mind thrive -- hierarchy, information pooling, and imitation -- to pinpoint the new target area. While the mass of followers clung meekly to their honycombs, a handful of "independent thinkers" flew about at will, testing one spot, then another, for food. The division of labor soon resulted in the discovery of the sugar dish's location. Now the herd instinct which results from imitative learning took over. The sheeplike multitude followed those who had made the find and combined their efforts to exploit the food source for all it was worth.
The following day, the experimenters once again set the dish twice as far from the hive as on the previous occasion. And once again the scouts fanned out, A myriad of antennae and eyes gathering input for a collective mind. Once again the trailblazers spotted the dish and the herd of follower bees swarmed to maximize the prize.
Then came the part that astonished the researchers. Each day they doubled the distance from the dish to the hive. The flight path's length followed an arithmetic progression of the sort which trips up many a human taking an aptitude test. After several days the swarm no longer waited for its scouts to return with bulletins on the latest coordinates. Instead, when experimenters arrived to set down the sugar water, they found the bees had preceeded them. Like multiple transistors crowded on the chip of a pocket calculator, the massed bees had computed the next step in a mathematical series.

It seems that intelligence stems from a network of communicating 'processing units'. Each processing unit may have a very small memory and do a very simple calculation task, but together when they pool their 'knowledge' much greater complexity can be acheived.

-pitch

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:45 am

Bee article. WOW. I agree, intelligence is about adaptation. However, I dont know if the Amnion have a Hive mind. What happens when small groups split off? Does that imply they become less? Is there a critical number of Amnioni to attain a collective consciousness? Hmmm.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:02 pm

wow pitch - very interesting! I think you have put into words far better than I did - re: questioning the connection between a 'hive mind' and 'intelligence' (autonomous thought/decision making).

From the experiment conducted on the bees it would support the notion that infact bees possess intelligence .. doesnt it?

the massed bees had computed the next step in a mathematical series.

by the way .. no need to apoligise ur-vile .. you did make yourself very clear .. thanks for the additional explanation though .. it would seem alas .. that it was I that obviously havent make my self clear.

the Amnion have an imperative, namely genetic hegemony over all life

Ur-vile .. what do you mean by a genetic hegemony over all life ..

A comical observation from the Bloom quote;

The bees used three of those tricks which make a group mind thrive -- hierarchy, information pooling, and imitation

.. isnt that 4 of those tricks??

Post by **Loredoctor** » Sun Sep 22, 2002 2:19 am

What I mean by genetic hegemony is that the amnion seem to want all life to be converted into amnion. In this sense they want their genetic code to be the dominant or exclusive one. sort of like conquering a country - only they want to conquer and convert all life. As far as I am aware, SRD mentioned the amnion wanted genetic dominance. I think this is 'hard-wired' into the amnion mindset.

Post by **MsMary** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:27 pm

I think a hive mind could not communicate over vast distances in space.

Interesting you should say that. Orson Scott Card, in Speaker for the Dead, and Xenocide, imagined a hive mind, in the alien species the Buggers, that could communicate a vast distant over space with no time lag.

That being said, I found the Amnion really creepy. Their desire to turn all beings into versions of themselves struck me as a new form of racism. It's as though I wanted everyone to be like me, so I inject them with a mutagen so that they become exactly like me.

~MsMary~

Post by **danlo** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:25 pm

Oh genetic imperative def is racism! It's specieism...(not a word, but fun!)

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:18 pm

I agree with ya Danlo - genetic imperialism is racism. Geneticism??? Still, who are we to judge the amnion? I mean, to them they probably think they have the moral right to try and convert all life into Amnion. It's as natural to them as procreating is to us. Racism is frightening to us (other than its aims) because people 'choose' to hate other races. For the Amnion, I get the impression they desire genetic imperialism because for them, it's part of their psyche.
I've always wondered what would happen to the Amnion beyond the Gap series. I don't think humanity would go to war against them. But given time, the Amnion would develop technologies for them to win a war against humanity. Would humanity then wipe them out to stop this from ever happening? I reckon that would ultimately happen as the Amnion cannot be made to change their urges. Ambassadors wouldn't work. I mean, you can still talk to human extremists.

Post by **MsMary** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:09 pm

What really bothered me about the Amnion was the way they were always spouting off about how they always kept their agreements, but then they would turn around and blackmail humans by threatening to inject them with mutagens, or actually injecting them and turning them into Amnioni.

It is made obvious in the story that they knew this was a frightful thing for humans - otherwise they could not have blackmailed Sorus for so long - but they seem to think that this was an acceptable thing for them to do, and in line with "keeping their agreements." Whereas, to me, it seems like treachery.

~MsMary~

Post by **danlo** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:43 pm

"mutual satisfaction of needs" just so long as their need is met in the end! (sounds like 98% of all politicians!)

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 pm

Who would trust them? It was pretty sneaky the way they gave Captain's Fancy faulty Gap drive components. And also how they treated Warden when he was aboard Calm Horizons. All in all a very untrustworthy race.

Post by **MsMary** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 2:48 am

My point exactly, Ur-vile.

Post by **Loredoctor** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:30 am

Indeed, Ms. Malone.

Post by **danlo** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:20 am

...I'm sorry y'all, but I just can't handle Tony Danza commenting on Gap hyper-technicalities...

(Is it just me? lol)

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:51 am

Post by **lurch** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:48 am

..Wow,,just got done reading thru this thread. Its been years since I read the The Gap Series. Thanks for giving me a moment of having the " creeps". SRD definetly had a way of making the reader feel " sorry" for the losers. Yet be entirely frightened by them. Amazing.

The last point is interesting. Much made of their sneaky or " twisting" the understanding or meaning ofa contract or deal. Yet it was the "individual" willingness of the humans to sacrifice themselves or two, that was the their undoing. They didn't seem to be able to predict that possibilty. Again, a flaw or difference with the Beehive mentality. Or more general, their belief in their superiority, their " art" of deal making, blinded them to the possibilty that the humans could be even more devious...Thanks ..MEL

Post by **Loredoctor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:15 am

*sniff*
I went through and re-read this thread. This is my favourite thread at kw. I made my points back when I joined almost 3 years ago. I felt so welcome.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Weren't the Amnion cool?

The Creeps!