Kevin's Watch

variol son wrote:And on a side note, I think that Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and her rapist, Rhaegar Targaryen. We know that Lyanna made Eddard promise her stuff, but we never here what all of those promises were. I think that one was to care for the child but never let anyone know his true parentage. Besides, Robert would likely have killed Jon if he found out.

Hehe, it looks like I guessed good.

Sum sui generis
Vs

You guessed very well, VS! I didn't catch that myself on my first read, but on the forum A Song of Ice and Fire (there may be a link to it somewhere on KW, but there's definitely one at Ahira's Hangar) that theory is known as "R+L=J" or Layanna=Jon....
There are tons of possible theories for Jon's parents--Ned and a bunch of possible mothers, or Benjen Stark, etc. But Martin says we will know who Jon Snow's parents are and I'm sure it will be important to the plot...
edit: There may be one flaw in your guess though, VS. You call Prince Rhaegar Lyanna's "rapist," though if he is indeed Jon's father then he is not her rapist. Robert simply calls him that because he hates all Targareyns and he casts Rhaegar in this light. One important part of the R+L=J theory, I believe, is that Lyanna actually did love Rhaegar.

I also agree that Lyanna loved Rhaegar. Quite tellingly, Ned never thinks of Rhaegar as her rapist, and whenever he remembers him, remembers him with respect.

And in his memory of his sister's death, Lyanna is clutching dried blue roses as she dies (blue roses are the symbol of her throughout the books -- Rhaegar crowned her with them at the big tournament when he proclaimed her his Queen of Love of Beauty). A woman would only do that if she loves the man who gave them to her...

In Dany's vision in the House of Undying, she sees a blue rose growing from the Wall...this is thought to be one of the biggest clues of all that Jon is Lyanna's son...

Ooer! It just keeps getting better. I never thought of it that way. The mind certainly boggles.

Sum sui generis
Vs

duchess of malfi wrote:In Dany's vision in the House of Undying, she sees a blue rose growing from the Wall...this is thought to be one of the biggest clues of all that Jon is Lyanna's son...

I feel like a moron for never having seen that. I kept getting sidetracked by the mysterious Wylla, or whatever her name was....so if Wylla isn't Jon's mum, who the hellfire is she??

Now I need to go through the whole House of the Undying bit again and carefully look at each prophecy. I'm missing too much.

Sum sui generis
Vs

You have to be really careful with those prophecies because things that once might have been (such as the military career of Dany's dead son) are all mixed up with things that currently are, and with things that might be...

You might enjoy this. They are a bunch of quotes from the books put together about R+L=J. members.aol.com/akai292/rhaegar.txt

I go play geek-fan boy and see George read 2nite! I'll post details here and at the Hangar!

Sounds great!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent! You da man. Though I am jealous meeting my favorite fantasy authors, lucky you!

danlo wrote:I go play geek-fan boy and see George read 2nite! I'll post details here and at the Hangar!

I'm literally dying of envy here. Literally.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Yep, Danlo gets to have two readings -- one from GRRM and one from SRD -- in two days.

Maybe someday we can have an Elohimfest in conjunction with this conference.

Lord Mhoram wrote:You guessed very well, VS! I didn't catch that myself on my first read, but on the forum A Song of Ice and Fire (there may be a link to it somewhere on KW, but there's definitely one at Ahira's Hangar) that theory is known as "R+L=J" or Layanna=Jon....
There are tons of possible theories for Jon's parents--Ned and a bunch of possible mothers, or Benjen Stark, etc. But Martin says we will know who Jon Snow's parents are and I'm sure it will be important to the plot...
edit: There may be one flaw in your guess though, VS. You call Prince Rhaegar Lyanna's "rapist," though if he is indeed Jon's father then he is not her rapist. Robert simply calls him that because he hates all Targareyns and he casts Rhaegar in this light. One important part of the R+L=J theory, I believe, is that Lyanna actually did love Rhaegar.

Martin has called the Rhaegar/Lyanna pairing "too simple". Seeing how he crafts the story, I believe that. Rhaegar is not Jon's father. Another Targaryen is. No idea who, though.

Back to the original subject, Jon will die. He will be Dany's betrayal for love. I'm guessing he'll steal her dragons and fly them into battle, sacrificing himself and becoming the ultimate hero of the series. Dany will have his child.

The worst death will be Rickon. He will succumb to his own insanity, and he and Summer will let people know just how far insanity can go. The Red Wedding will look like a tea party next to it.

Ok, Rickon owns Shaggydog and Bran owns Summer, so which are you meaning?

Sum sui generis
Vs

Khaliban wrote:

Lord Mhoram wrote:You guessed very well, VS! I didn't catch that myself on my first read, but on the forum A Song of Ice and Fire (there may be a link to it somewhere on KW, but there's definitely one at Ahira's Hangar) that theory is known as "R+L=J" or Layanna=Jon....
There are tons of possible theories for Jon's parents--Ned and a bunch of possible mothers, or Benjen Stark, etc. But Martin says we will know who Jon Snow's parents are and I'm sure it will be important to the plot...
edit: There may be one flaw in your guess though, VS. You call Prince Rhaegar Lyanna's "rapist," though if he is indeed Jon's father then he is not her rapist. Robert simply calls him that because he hates all Targareyns and he casts Rhaegar in this light. One important part of the R+L=J theory, I believe, is that Lyanna actually did love Rhaegar.

Martin has called the Rhaegar/Lyanna pairing "too simple". Seeing how he crafts the story, I believe that. Rhaegar is not Jon's father. Another Targaryen is. No idea who, though.

Back to the original subject, Jon will die. He will be Dany's betrayal for love. I'm guessing he'll steal her dragons and fly them into battle, sacrificing himself and becoming the ultimate hero of the series. Dany will have his child.

The worst death will be Rickon. He will succumb to his own insanity, and he and Summer will let people know just how far insanity can go. The Red Wedding will look like a tea party next to it.

Okay, hold up. You're making assumptions here. If you have learned anything from Martin it should be- don't try to predict his series! Granted, that's what I'm doing with R+L=J, but I don't buy the whole "too simple" idea. edit: btw, I don't think Martin ever said that it was too simple. It was his girlfriend who said that I think. But you can never tell. I still buy the whole theory.
IMO, Jon and Dany will end up together somehow. One may die. They both may die. They both may live. Who knows.
Another question. WTF is up with everyone saying Rickon's insane? He's like less than 10! Where is the reasoning behind this?

He's a very angry little kid, but has every right to be...

Only time will tell what will happen to Rickon...he has many years to learn to overcome that anger.

As far as Lyanna and Rhaegar are concerned, there are far too many clues to point to their being Jon's parents. The remark about it being too easy could refer to Rhaegar being a rapist, readers just taking Robert's view of events at face value, while the actual story might be a lot more complex. Tellingly, Martin has stated he is going to defer having the only person who actually knows what happened at the Tower of Joy (where Lyanna died in her "bed of blood") until late in the series...(Howland Reed, is, as far as I can figure out, the only person left alive who was involved with the events there).

Ok I'll throw a real monkey wrench in here-during Martin's read, Friday, from AFFC/a Davos POV chapter-Goderic Borell, the slimy-fishlike-Lord of Sisterton a major port in the Three Sisters reveals to Davos that even Ned Stark had been here at the dawn of Robert's Rebellion on his way from John Arryn seeking support against the Red Dragon and passage to Winterhaven in order to get back to Winterfell. A fisherman took him there and he was dumped on the shore with a bucket of Manderly silver and the fisherman's daughter with a bastard in her belly they named Jon Snow.

Can't wait!!!!!

Hurry, Danlo, hurry!

variol son wrote:Ok, Rickon owns Shaggydog and Bran owns Summer, so which are you meaning?

Sum sui generis
Vs

Sorry, got the wolves mixed up.

Lord Mhoram wrote:

Khaliban wrote:

Lord Mhoram wrote:You guessed very well, VS! I didn't catch that myself on my first read, but on the forum A Song of Ice and Fire (there may be a link to it somewhere on KW, but there's definitely one at Ahira's Hangar) that theory is known as "R+L=J" or Layanna=Jon....
There are tons of possible theories for Jon's parents--Ned and a bunch of possible mothers, or Benjen Stark, etc. But Martin says we will know who Jon Snow's parents are and I'm sure it will be important to the plot...
edit: There may be one flaw in your guess though, VS. You call Prince Rhaegar Lyanna's "rapist," though if he is indeed Jon's father then he is not her rapist. Robert simply calls him that because he hates all Targareyns and he casts Rhaegar in this light. One important part of the R+L=J theory, I believe, is that Lyanna actually did love Rhaegar.

Martin has called the Rhaegar/Lyanna pairing "too simple". Seeing how he crafts the story, I believe that. Rhaegar is not Jon's father. Another Targaryen is. No idea who, though.

Back to the original subject, Jon will die. He will be Dany's betrayal for love. I'm guessing he'll steal her dragons and fly them into battle, sacrificing himself and becoming the ultimate hero of the series. Dany will have his child.

The worst death will be Rickon. He will succumb to his own insanity, and he and Summer will let people know just how far insanity can go. The Red Wedding will look like a tea party next to it.

Okay, hold up. You're making assumptions here. If you have learned anything from Martin it should be- don't try to predict his series! Granted, that's what I'm doing with R+L=J, but I don't buy the whole "too simple" idea. edit: btw, I don't think Martin ever said that it was too simple. It was his girlfriend who said that I think. But you can never tell. I still buy the whole theory.
IMO, Jon and Dany will end up together somehow. One may die. They both may die. They both may live. Who knows.
Another question. WTF is up with everyone saying Rickon's insane? He's like less than 10! Where is the reasoning behind this?

I thought predicting the events was the point of the thread. I'm just offering ideas. As for Rickon, the wolf cubs reflect the personality of their owner, and Rickon's wolf is clearly insane. I do think Jon's father is a Targaryen, just not Rhaegar. You can tell that from Ghost's coloring. Targaryens have white hair. I also think Benjen knows the truth. If Eddard would tell anyone, it would be him.

Part of the fun of reading is guessing what will happen. It is for me anyway. Right or wrong, the ideas are fun to think about. We have to do something while waiting for A Feast for Crows.