Kevin's Watch

A Gunslinger wrote:

ur-bane wrote:Ahh.....another excellent thread at the Watch. I love this place and all you people!

As far as Elena is concerned, yes, she showed her lack of wisdom in all her choices. Her "other" sight dominated her. Part of what made her who she was, and perhaps the part that gave her a false sense of security, in my opinion, is the fact that Covenant was her father. How could she fail in her choices with the blood of the Land's hero reborn flowing through her veins?

And, I think that it is Mhoram's weakness that made him strong. He understood his weaknesses, he knew his limits, and yet at all turns he was willing to go beyond his knowledge of himself. He may have had self-doubt, but he used that as a source for determination and success.

One thing about Elena. She of all the High-Lords, seems to intuitively guess (though she never articulated it) as her actions bore the proof...was that the oath of peace was the barrier between the Lords and the understanding of Kevin's Lore. Her inituitive action however was not counter-balanced by true wisdom.

Had Mhoram discovered the Power of Command, he would not have hastily quaffed a deep draft of the stuff. Also, had the other lords been WITH Elena at the time, the melding would have given her a measure of self-restraint, courtesy of the other lords, that she lacked. She was a daughter of rape who had an electra complex. Yipes.

There! Finally fixed!

I don't know what made Mhoram wise, but this discussion does sort of point up the fact that it is the people who are able to doubt their own choices who are the greatest threat to Lord Foul. Elena is defeated, and Hile Troy nearly so, because of their inability to conceive they might be wrong.

It's only the people who doubt--Prothal, Foamfollower, Mhoram, Covenant, even Triock

Spoiler

before the Raver got him

who are truly able to fight the Despiser. People without doubt--like Elena, Troy, the Bloodguard, like

Spoiler

Lena, Elena's mother

are made to betray either the responsibilities or the people they hold most sacred.

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious here. But I find it interesting in the context of something SRD said in the GI (I'm paraphrasing) about how the purpose of telling stories is to help explain the world we live in, about what it means to be human, about what the important things are. It would seem that maybe self-doubt is the key to defeating Despite; that those who never doubt are at risk of becoming Despisers themselves.

Electra complex? What's this?

heh, Yeah, Mhoram was much more wise than any of the other Lords... He would have put the Power of Command to much better use than Elena did, or not at all...

He was one of my favourite SRD characters ever written... heh.

I think he had every right to doubt himself... All wise people do... otherwise I don't think they are wise, they are arrogant.

"All wise people doubt themselves..."

Okay, that's a paraphrase, not a quote, but I couldn't agree more. Mhoram was my favorite character as well, but I'll never be absolutely certain if it was because Mhoram was a "humanized" Gandalf, or because it was solely due to Mhoram's character.

What I mean by that is that I read LOTR in 7th grade. That was 1978. I read TC in 1980. My greatest frustration while reading LOTR was that Gandalf, even after he came back from the dead, was still somewhat shrouded. Tolkien never fully revealed his character to us. Donaldson took Mhoram, and revealed his character to us as fully as any writer has EVER revealed the character of a user of magic (pardon my use of a trite phrase). It might also be why Lord Mhoram's Victory is one of my favorite chapters in all of fantasy - in one sense, I finally got to see "the passion of Gandalf".

I'm not trying to say that Mhoram is a cookie cutter copy of Gandalf, but there's no question that he's "Gandalf-ish". If you disagree, put Mhoram in Middle-Earth, and ask yourself what he would do in Gandalf's shoes, and vice-versa. I think we'd find they would act in very similar fashions.

Gandalf's strength came from his humility and his wisdom, as did Mhoram's. When asked to accompany others of his order to Middle Earth to help the people struggle against Sauron, Gandalf (Olorin) said he was weary, and that he feared Sauron. I believe he feared Sauron not because he was truly afraid of him, as a mouse is afraid of a cat, but because Sauron possessed qualities that Gandalf did not - ruthlessness, avarice, and, although this is just my assumption based on wanna-be Sauron's like Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini (to name a few), relative insanity.

I think I digressed. But that's allowed.

I certainly agree that they would have acted in similar ways... but their behavious during their missions would have been profoundly different... I don't really think that Gandalf was humble at all... Not like Mhoram is... An Gandalf is powerful to be sure... But I think that Mhoram's wisdom surpasses that opf Gandalf... at least in my opinion... or prehaps not... It's hard to say.

I have to respectfully disagree on the wisdom part, and the humility part. I'd elaborate, but I think my previous post states my opinion well enough, and I don't want to be verbose.

Darth Revan wrote:Electra complex? What's this?

The female version of the Oedipus complex. In Greek mythology, Oedipus killed his father and slept with his mother, although he didn't realize who they were until much later as he was adopted. Elektra was his sister.

So men who want to have sex with their mother's have an Oedipus complex and women who want to have sex with their father's have an Elektra complex.



Anywho, so of course Mhoram already has self doudt in Lord Foul's bane. And after that, well they may have the Staff of Law, but the Despiser has the Illearth Stone. And while they have the Second Ward, the fact of the matter is that they found it accidentally, and only got to it because of the white gold. Besides, they haven't really managed to penetrate the Lore, even with both Wards. Kevin's Lore remains closed to them. And now war is marching. Hell, I'd doubt myself too.

Sum sui generis
Vs

I was thinking something along the lines of a "Carmen Electra" complex, and just couldn't figure it out.

Granted, I didn't give it much thought.

Hmmmm, more thinking...

In saying that the Lords of Elena's Council (except Mhoram of course) suffered from an arrogance or naivety similar to that of their High Lord, but on a lesser scale, I still note that most hadf a measure of self doubt, and that it was this doubt that lead them to their greatest feats.

It was because of his self doubt that Verement faced Jehannum Fleshharrower at Doom's Retreat. Until then only Shetra had kept him from trying to prove himself, but she was now dead. Shetra herself was plaugued with doubt throughout the entire quest to Seareach, yet found it within herself to resist the Lurker of the Sarangrave in the murky depths of Defile's Course.

Self doubt lead Callindrill to remain at Revelwood to defend the tree city. Though Hyrim was almost defeated by it after seeing the slaughter of the Grieve, he still managed to give the Bloodguard what they needed to defeat Herem Kinslaughterer.

It was because of his self doubt that Trevor stood in defence of the outer gates of Revelstone with only Trell in support, and it was in spite of self doubt that Amatin fought beyond her strength to defend the tower, and parted the dead from the inner gates, allowing horam to ride out to kill Sheol Satansfist. Despite her own self doubt, Loerya returned to help protect Tohrm and Mhoram from trell's desecration, and to regain the tower to enable the Warward to ride.

Sure, most of them died, but they died valiantly, serving the Land and keeping their Oath of Piece. And I suspect (or hope) that those who died found some measure of wisdom comparable to Mhoram's.

Sum sui generis
Vs