Kevin's Watch

CovenantJr wrote:That's interesting. Does that mean the lore of the Lords was recorded in Giant language? Does it mean the humans of the Land had no written language until the Unhomed brought it with them?

The Old Lords definitely had their own language, and I've always understood that Kevin's Wards were written in Old Lord-ish. I also don't mean to imply that the people of the Land had no written language of their own. This is something that just isn't provided by SRD.

From yesterday's GI:

KE8: In response to a question about why Seadreamer was unable to write down the information he possessed, you wrote:

"Is there anything in the "Covenant" books to suggest that the Giants possess a written language? Surely one of the long-term side-effects of writing things down is that people then talk less; tell stories aloud less. But I see no evidence that the Giants talk less than they once did. So why would they *need* a written language?"

I would answer that yes there is: maps. I find it difficult to picture an effective map that does not employ some form of written language. Nor can the maps have been written by someone else - since the Giants are said to be explorers, they would have to be cartographers of some kind, which suggests a written language.

And on the subject of Giants, I have a second question, and it’s one that I have often wondered about: why were the Unhomed unable to find their way home? Putting aside the various mythological allusions inherent in a group of lost wanderers, why should it be so difficult for this sea-faring people to find Home? They had literally thousands of years to locate it before the events in the First Chronicles. They must know the general direction in which it is to be found. Is the Earth so huge that such a problem is possible? Was there some kind of curse put on them, unmentioned in the story? Or does this fall under the category of a question for which there is no answer, or no relevance?

We're wandering outside the text here, so this is dangerous ground. But I'm willing to hazard a few observations.

First, there is nothing about being a seafaring people that requires either maps or written language. Polynesian sailors a very long time ago found their way east as far as Pitcairn Island and north as far as Hawaii (vast stretches of ocean)--and returned home--and there is no record that they possessed anything like maps. As far as I've been able to learn, they navigated by an extremely close observation of their surroundings, by expanding their reach in small increments--and by telling the story (sharing knowledge orally).

As for how the Giants could become lost: well, history doesn't record how many Polynesian sailors--or Vikings, for that matter--were lost on their journeys; but the distances they covered successfully, while vast, were small compared to the overall size of the planet and its oceans. And they didn't have to cope with navigational hazards like the Soulbiter. (Even in our mundane world, the Bermuda Triangle demonstrates that "getting lost" can have a wide variety of meanings.) Sure, I know that in the original "Chronicles" references are made to visits to such place as the lands of the Elohim and Bhrathair: places which the later Giants clearly know how to find in "The Second Chronicles." But you might want to consider how completely disorienting it could be to get caught in the Soulbiter, only to emerge a continent or two and several oceans away from familiar seas. Especially keeping in mind that the Unhomed admit how reckless their explorations were. (And we won't even mention how notoriously fickle even mundane oceans and weather can be.)

(10/14/2004)

Ok, as we've established above - the Giants had maps, and they could read written language.

To me, SRD's assertions to the contrary are just plain silly.

I think you had it right in your first post dlb:

His answer seems to say "Seadreamer didn't write down what he wanted to say because I didn't write that he did."

SRD isn't always the best at being consistent, as he has admitted in a previous GI question

I tell ya, folks, internal consistency's a bitch.

and he does sometimes seem to forget the minutiae. Whereas this sort of thing brings out the "rules lawyer" in me - a legacy of my old gaming days I guess!

About the Giants and writing:
The civilizations we see in TCOC are all pretty much the equivalent of very ancient civilizations in our own world. Our Sumerians, Egyptians, and Mayans had written language, but only a tiny fraction of people with special training (priests and scribes) could read and write. This may be the situation among the Giants (and the people of the Land as well). Honningsrave, needing to read maps and charts, may have a smattering of literacy, but Seadreamer (and most of the other Giants of the Search) do not. So the answer to the question of why Seadreamer could not write down his visions is simple enough: he was illiterate.

Maybe the giants had written language, maybe they didn't...Maybe Seadreamer could write, maybe he couldn't, maybe he could have acted out what he wanted to say, may he could have drawn pictures....BUT, if the Earthsight was powerfull enough to take away his speach, it was probebly powerfull enough not to allow him any means of easy comunication. Because if he could have, then the search would never have stepped foot on the Island of the One Tree, and a whole lot of stuff would not have happened. Just because the Easrthsight gave Seadreamer a fair amount of imput as to what was going to happen, it doesn't mean the he always made the right decisions. They NEEDED to get on the Island, Brinn HAD to become AK-HARU, Vain HAD to become slightly...wooden.
Remember how Seadreamer didn't even want to leave the Land to look for the One Tree, but if they hadn't, they would have never aquired Findail, or met Nom...and unfortunatly, Honniscrave would not have been Depaired enought to attack Gibbon.
-Just as an afterthought, think of what would have happened if Covenant et al had not met the Search...and the Giants just followed Seadreamer to Revelstone. They wuld have been consumed just as all the Haruchai were,
imagine the Banefire fueled with Giantish Blood!!

drew def has a point! The Earthsight itself may have actually helped in finding the Isle (and in relocating Home's, or the opposite, continent) in an odd way. Honniscrave imparted to the Search that he was sure of the One Tree's location, given the Elohim's information, but if he was making navigational errors it is possible that he could correct them simply by judging the reactions on Seadreamer's face.

I guess we're getting to a real nitpicky interpretation of writting but his maps may have soley consisted of pictographs and symbols. Yes, I realize that when you boil it down any agreed upon symbology can be classified as writting and pictographs can be considered hyrogliphics...but perhaps the Giants only utilized these things at their base level.

Don't get me wrong I appauld the search you guys are on and don't mean to diminish it-just trying to make a possible point. And when I said: (and in relocating Home's, or the opposite, continent) I'm not trying to find things that may purposely defend any inconsistencies on SRD's part. I'm just pointing out that it is possible that without the Earthsight traveling East to West across the Sunbirth Sea may have been chaotic, if not impossible.

I guess if you look hard enough there's a number of factors the Unhomed didn't have in their favor: Unknown navigational and reversed star bearings, unfamiliar tidal patterns and complete unperdictability of the Soulbiter's cycle. (of course the Soulbiter is chaotic, but perhaps eons of experience sailing out of Home allowed them to perdict some window of oppurtunity in order to avoid it...traveling West-East, i.e) Emotions clouding their senses-no wild magic [no immediate need on the Creator's part], luck, etc..etc...