Kevin's Watch

Ok, here's my take.

The Elohim's most preferable way to fix the Sunbane was Linden, holding Covenant's ring and fixing it. As long as Coventant kept coming up with different ideas of how to fix it (quest for the One Tree, ect) this couldn't happen, they wanted him to lose hope (in himself) and give the ring to Linden. I also believe they saw the purpose Vain was created (to join with an Elohim to make a new Staff of Law) but still prefered Linden to do it herself. Findail fixed Vain's arm in the off chance that it came down to him and Vain morphing, so that if the time came, it would be a perfect Staff.

What do you guys think?

[ I wanted to add some other things, and not just cross-post. ]

The Dreaming wrote:It was only Findail's neck on the line, so why should the Elohim fear the purpose?

Consider that they had no issue at all with sacrificing one of their own when it was time to cap the volcano, or help the One Forest. I don't think that this bothered them.

They don't even pay attention to each other in Elemesnedene. "What is the need? I also am the heart of the Earth, as he is." When all are indentical, the loss of one is not significant.

The Dreaming wrote:For what reason did the Elohim abduct and attempt to destroy Vain in TOT?

Ah... they did not attempt to destroy Vain. They imprisoned him. And, when they had to choose between destroying him and freeing him, they opted to free him. Only Findail had ever tried to harm Vain, and then only at the end.

The Dreaming wrote:Surely they understood that simply destroying Foul wouldn’t stop the sunbane from destroying all the world?

I think this is an important point that is overlooked. The Elohim don't give one dang about Lord Foul. It's the Sunbane which concerns them. The Elohim cannot fight Lord Foul - they are Earthpower, and he is not of the Earth. "He whom you name the Despiser is a being of another kind entirely. We are effectless against him. That is our Wurd." and "Earthpower is not the answer to Despite." They didn't appear three millennia ago when Lord Foul threatened the Land. It's the Sunbane that they are after.

Krilly wrote:The Elohim were NOT aware of Vain's purpose.

I agree that the Elohim are not all-knowing. But I think that they have a better idea than this. (As does The Dreaming.) And they never said what the threat is. As I posted above, I think the threat is not about being "absorbed", but something else entirely. Something that is more central to the authors thesis. Something about needing to share in order to save.

If the Elohim never intended Covenant and Lindon to remake the staff, how did they expect to get rid of Sunbane? Did they want Lindon to heal the earth with the wild magic? I assume Findail could fill the same purpose. Did the Elohim intend to get off their A**es after LF was gone and do it? How could they without Law?

Precicely.This is the heart of the matter.

They cannot heal the Sunbane themselves, or they would do it. But they won't let Vain do what he was made to do, which in the end is to restore the Law which the Sunbane corrupts. The Elohim are conflicted.

The Dreaming wrote:Also, why else would the Elohim send TC to The one tree unless they foresaw the need to make a new staff of law? Was it all Just to wear down Covenant? I don’t think so, They meant for him to be catatonic at the one tree. What did they gain by revealing the location?

That's a great question! Could it be that they though that it was a harmless giveaway, which could amount to nothing, but made so that they would appear to satisfy Covenant's request?

Or ... are they conflicted? This could be another example of how they oppose Vain's purpose but fear to eliminate it.

Or ... perhaps they feel that this would encourage Linden to take the White Gold from Covenant? That at the One Tree they would fail, and that that would drive Linden to the possession that the Elohim crave.

Variol Farseer wrote:My take has always been that the idea of Law itself is repugnant to the Elohim.

Of course! Yes! That fits well. Vain's job was to join the Elohim to the Law. Vain would not have been made if the Elohim were already filled with Law.

The Dreaming wrote:where Either Lindon tells them that they ARE law and should seek its return or They say it about themselves.

No, she says " You could stop the Sunbane-restore the Law-defeat Lord Foul-just by making the effort!" As VF said, Earthpower is not the same thing as law.

The Dreaming wrote:Is Findail the exception or the rule?

The exception IMO. He has a personal stake that the other Elohim don't have.

[ Sorry, still not done. I need to tell my boss that my job is cutting into my Watch time. ]

CovenantJr wrote:It appears that the Elohim's forst choice of solution to the Sunbane was to take possession of Covenant's ring and resolve matters themselves.

Before this question can even be tackled, I'd like to back up some steps.

"You are the Sun-Sage." ... "You are not."

"Yet here is a mystery. All our vision has seen the same truth -- that the Sun-Sage and ring-wielder who would come among us in quest are one being. Thereon hinge matters of grave import. And our vision does not lie. Rawedge Rim and Woodenwold do not lie. How may this be explained, Sun-Sage?"

How may this be explained? How could the Elohim be so wrong?

Or is it possible that they were right all along, but failed to understand something about Covenant and Linden which leads them to incorrectly believe that they were misled? By which I mean, could it be that Covenant and Linden are "one"?

Nah.

If the Elohim cannot address Lord Foul, because he not Earthly, then they can't understand White Gold too much, either. So I think what happened was, like the Mule in Asimov's Foundation, Covenant's and Foul's battles were not accounted for in the prophesy of the Earth, and so it became invalid. Which leaves the Elohim with the wrong problem in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that headstrong bunch won't admit that they're mistaken.

I have a strong hunch that all of these things are not coincidental to each other.

So here's how I see it (or a part of it, anyway):

The Elohim wish to stop the Sunbane -- "A desire to eradicate the tarnish they noticed within themselves." They're incable of being concerned with Foul. Covenant and Linden wish to stop Foul as well as the Sunbane. Therefore, they come into conflict with the Elohim. The Elohim want the ring to go straight to Linden so that the Sunbane can be defeated - do not pass Mount Thunder, do not collect two hundred dollars. Covenant can't give Linden the ring until Foul is defeated, because Linden can't do that deed. So the Elohim get pretty mad at Covenant, and silence him. They don't care that this gives Foul a break - maybe Linden will get the ring now.

You may have hit on something there, Wayfriend I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense.

One thing to remember about the Elohim. They may be Earthpower incarnate, but they're certainly not all-knowing. I agree that it was beyond their ability to see the cause of Foul's defeat. This lack of sight almost caused destruction. They tried to manipulate events so that their vision - what they could see of it at least - would come true. What they couldn't possibly know was that Covenant was going to give his ring to Foul, and then after Foul was defeated that the ring would roll its way on down to Linden, and she would then, at that moment, become the Sun-Sage. All they could see was that she needed to be the Sun-Sage.

Also, I always thought that Findail was simply being selfish. I felt that he knew exactly what Vain's purpose was - after all, Vain was given to him in Andelain, and Andelain was the last bastion of Earthpower, so the Elohim likely had more than a little insight into what was going on there even if they didn't have a perfect grasp on everything - and just didn't want to give up eternal life, and become the representation of Law in a new Staff. That is quite a sacrifice to make, after all.

Eternal life? Imprisonment in a piece of wood and possible death if that stick is destroyed again? Eternal life? Imprisonment?

I could see Findail's hesitation, even if he's being a bastard about it.

First off, thanks a LOT Wayfriend. I had nearly given up on an explanation, and you more than satisfied me. To get a reply like that really does flatter me.

Just *one* thing. You say that the Elohim planned on having Lindon (or maybe Findail) use the Ring to purge the sunbane. Well, how did they expect Lindon to do this without restoring the rigidity of Law that allowed for earthpower to remain free of taint? Was the destruction of the staff of law outside their knowledge and prophesy? Was the weakening of law that allowed Foul to create sunbane in the first place completely beyond their knowledge? (as you describe it wayfriend)

Also, don't you think that using wild magic to bend Earthpower back to it's natural state would only weaken the law more? Are the Elohim incapable of realizing the importance of law outside some intuitive caution that keep's them from destroying Vain or just taking the ring from Covenant and putting it on Lindon's finger? If so, where does this caution come from?

Hmm, Sorry, every answer makes more questions. I guess that is why these forums exist.

Hey! My post got deleted!

What I had written was: perhaps the new Staff of Law was not necessary for the healing of the Sunbane.

Then I had mentioned that the Staff of Law, like Foul and wild magic, might be considered to be from outside the Earth, and therefore of no account to the Elohim.

Then I had mentioned that there was a quote to support this, but that I could not find it. Well, I came back because I found it.

In LFB was wrote:... for it was the Creator's act which placed Despite here. In sorrow and humility, the Creator saw what he had done. So that the plight of the Earth would not be utterly without hope, he sought to help his creation in indirect ways. He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law - a weapon against Despite. But the very Law of the Earth's creation permits nothing more.

So the Staff of Law was designed as something specifically to work against Foul. It is not a "natural part of the Earth", part of the original creation. Therefore, this would explain why the Elohim do not take the Staff into account when trying to resolve the Sunbane.

In the GI, SRD wrote:(And I won't even mention the special relationship between the Elohim and the Worm of the World's End.)

Okay. How do we fit this into the picture?!?!

Did anyone even suspect it?

Krilly wrote:The Elohim were NOT aware of Vain's purpose. They saw that the ur-viles had explicitly designed Vain to be able to "absorb" raw earthpower (such as themselves). This of course was a threat to them.

Because they did not know what Vain was for, they had no conception that a new Staff was to be made and how. Furthermore, they did not know what Findail's doom was... they only knew that he was appointed to meet his personal doom in order to aid the Earth. What that aid was, or the cost, is never known beforehand.

SRD in the gradual interview said that Findail knew what he was appointed to do. Therefore, the Elohim were aware of Vain's purpose.

Re: The Elohim want the ring to go straight to Linden so that the Sunbane can be defeated

I have never understood how they expected her to do this without a new Staff though. It is after all the Staff as much as the wild magic that enables her to heal the Sunbane. And in fact I noticed an odd shift in the 2nd Chronicles. Initially Findail, like the other Elohim, is insistent that Linden should have the Ring. But then he starts to waffle a bit. Not that he wants Covenant to have it either (he wants it for himself as well) but he does start to realize that Linden getting the Ring equals the end for him since Vain will compel him to merge under the power of the Wild Magic. For example when Linden sees Covenant in the Banefire and is toying with the idea of sacrificing herself in it as well, Findail tells her something like “I do not desire your death though I would be spared much thereby.”
Anyway, I can’t help but think there’s piece missing in the puzzle somewhere and maybe we’ll find out what it is in the forthcoming books.

I've always felt that it was the simple reason I mentioned above. He had two choices: 1) Lose his eternal existence and become the expression of Law by being forced to join together with Vain and being imprisoned, in a sense, in a piece of wood for God knows how long; or 2) somehow escaping that fate, and maintining eternal existence.

We know the Elohim to be selfish. I think he was simply choosing #2.

One of the things that struck me about the Elohim is that they were not productive at all. They didn't do anything other than bask in being themselves. They may meet and discuss grave topics, but it seems that they are seldom involved in any real "life".

My thinking is that because they ARE Earthpower they have no real function. Also, like any power, there has to be a limitation of power. So perhaps they felt that power used elsewhere or shared, would diminish their own. They seemed particularily obsessed with maintaining rather than changing.

Could it be that they recognized Vain as a potential drain on some of their power?

Wayfriend wrote:

In the GI, SRD wrote:(And I won't even mention the special relationship between the Elohim and the Worm of the World's End.)

Okay. How do we fit this into the picture?!?!

I ran across this today in my pre-Runes re-read. I want to smack myself on the head.

in The One Tree was wrote:Into the silence, Daphin placed her story. It was an account of the creation of the Earth; and Linden soon realized that it was the same tale Pitchwife had told her during the calling of the Nicor. Yet it contained one baffling difference. Daphin did not speak of a Worm. Rather, she used that blurred sound, Würd, which seemed to signify both Wyrd and Word.

This Würd had awakened at the dawning of the eon and begun to consume the stars as if it intended to devour the cosmos whole. After a time, it had grown satiated and had curled around itself to rest, thus forming the Earth. And thus the Earth would remain until the Würd roused to resume its feeding.

It was precisely the same story Pitchwife had told. Had the Giants who had first brought that tale out of Elemesnedene misheard it? Or had the Elohim pronounced it differently to other visitors?

As if in answer, Daphin concluded, "Sun-Sage, we are the Würd - the direct offspring of the creation of the Earth. From it we arose, and in it we have our being. Thus we are the heart, and the center, and the truth, and therefore we are what we are. We are all answers, just as we are every question. For that reason, you must not judge the reply which we will give to your need."

... so ... the Elohim ... are ... the Children of the Worm!

Ponder, people! (More when I have time ...)

You missed an important point in reading The One Tree, and none of the replies have addressed it.

You ask:

[W]hy did the Elohim as a whole try to prevent Vain's purpose?

The Elohim as a whole did not. Go back and re-read the relevant part. After Vain escapes, Linden urges the company to depart before Chant and those who think like him make another attempt. It is clear that there are those such as Daphin who disagree with the Chant-faction.

Chant is representative of those of the Elohim who believe that it is above the Elohim to have to sacrifice one of their own, to share the price of redemption with lesser races. Why are Chant and other Elohim offended when Covenant and Linden fail to show Infelice the proper respect? They’re not being hurt, personally. It’s essentially race pride. Or they feel threatened vicariously by these uppity mortals.

If the Elohim as a whole had been intent on undoing Vain, nothing that he or Ceer or Hergrom could have tried would have saved him.

As for Würd, remember that the Giantish version of the story of the Worm/Würd is further from the source than the Elohim version. The Elohim themselves roughly translate Würd as “ethic.”

If there was sufficient Elohim concensus, if you will, to capture him in the first place, why wasn't there enough to recapture him?

It's my belief that they tried to imprison Vain, but they could not prevent his purpose without destroying him, and they were unwilling to go that far. This has been brought up in other threads.

Wayfriend wrote:(Emphasis is mine.) At some point I would like to draw up, or discover where someone has already drawn up, a list of parallels between the First and Second Chronicles. Until then, it is firm in my mind that the Elohim are, in some respects, the Hile Troy of the Second Chronicles. Which is to say, they are a Covenant foil, even a specific kind of Covenent foil - a foil which illuminates The Wrong Way To Go.

So on to my hypothesis: The Elohim have the power to save the world, but they are unable to tolerate that they cannot do this without assistance.

This is why they imprisoned Vain, and didn't destroy him, and then essentially let him go. They had to admit that he might be necessary.

See this thread

P.S. I have been working up a very large discourse on this topic. One day I will post it.

Read that section of TOT again, Wayfriend:

Perhaps Elohim like Daphin were able to dissuade those who shared Chant's way of thinking.

Also, who says there was sufficient power to “capture” Vain in the first place? Vain tends to go along with things until they prevent his following Linden and/or Covenant. His struggle to escape was where it was being decided whether Chant and company had the power to stop him.

Wayfriend wrote:When all are indentical, the loss of one is not significant.

They're not all identical, though. Witness Kastenessen.