Kevin's Watch

I agree. That story is too easy and too predictable. SRD has something better in store for us.

ur-bane wrote: Why does Berek need to be either Covenant or Roger? In fact, why does Berek need to be involved at all? Haven't we learned anything from the Elena/Kevin fiasco? SRD is not going to bring Berek from the past to fight Foul of the future. Nor will we find that either Covenant or Roger was alive in the Land a full 3000 years before our first knowledge of TC's arrival in LFB. At least I hope he doesn't. It would ruin the Chronicles for me. It would make all the struggles of the Stonedownors, Woodhelven, Lords, Giants Haruchai Ramen and Ranyhyn meaningless. 6000 years of history squashed by a caesure. We find that regardless of any attempt to the contrary, the fate of the Land has been written all along. Hellfire and Bloody damnation! I won't have it. I! I!

No, I never thought that Roger/Berek would interact with anyone beyond what we know to be Berek's timeline.
No "Berek vs Foul".
Roger is a clean slate.
He has no prehistory with the Land.
(Sure he's crazy but that can change.)
The Caesures allow transport to ALL time within the Arch.
It's totally possible for Roger to show up and be stranded 6000 years before TC makes an appearance and do everything that the legends say that Berek did.
Plus if he's dead in the real world he's here for good!
It would be interesting if he gets stranded in the "past" (Berek time) because after being dropped off by a caesure he can't get back because the Law of Life and Death are intact during "Berek's" time.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:It's totally possible for Roger to show up and be stranded 6000 years before TC makes an appearance and do everything that the legends say that Berek did.

I might believe that if one of the Lords had said to TC, "Melenkurion! You really do look like Berek. By my Oath, your raiment even resembles that which the legends tell us Berek first wore.."
Hmmm...and the final message of SRD's Chronicles becomes, "Just go with the flow, because your future has already played out, you just haven't gotten there yet."
Of course it is entirely possible. But I hope not. All I can do is speculate, really. But I do know that that is something I don't want to read.

ur-bane wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:It's totally possible for Roger to show up and be stranded 6000 years before TC makes an appearance and do everything that the legends say that Berek did.

I might believe that if one of the Lords had said to TC, "Melenkurion! You really do look like Berek. By my Oath, your raiment even resembles that which the legends tell us Berek first wore.."
Hmmm...and the final message of SRD's Chronicles becomes, "Just go with the flow, because your future has already played out, you just haven't gotten there yet."
Of course it is entirely possible. But I hope not. All I can do is speculate, really. But I do know that that is something I don't want to read.

Well, Roger losing his clothes in the years leading up to his working for the Queen isn't really that hard to imagine is it?

Perhaps we envision different things.
I don't expect that a caesure will "pop" him into the throneroom of the King and Queen!

TC said my times (and I can't cite it, sorry) that everything comes back to Berek. I know he said it somewhere.

Lets assume that somewhere in the Last Chronicles Roger is "healed" and becomes a being of *good* (not the mental case that he is currently)
I imagine that whatever story he was involved with before hand left him wearing "Land" clothes.
He's initially an outsider but works his way up quickly and earns the Queen's trust.
He's got a ton of knowledge of the future in his head ala: "Seer and Oracle".
But he also knows the danger to the Arch if he lets too much be known.
Roger's "real" body is dead so he's not going back.
People from outside the Land have Power here, says TC in tWL, so that explains how Roger/Berek is so powerful and apt for the use of Earthpower (just like Linden).
I can even see the New SoL being the one that Berek "finds" and carves the runes into creating the "Old" Sol.

Perhaps what TC sees as a cut branch in the cavern of the One Tree is actually something else.
Perhaps Kastenessen cut the One Tree to forge a weapon against the Elohim!
hahahaha......
Ok ok...........I'm..............ok..........

I don't understand your "future has already played out" idea.
In their context to we as readers, of course their futures are laid out.

A couple of aguments against the Someone has to be Berek thing.

If Roger, or Jerry, or TC turned into Berek, why the name Berek?

Why wouldn't it be the legend of Jeramiah Halfhand?

The Timeline doesn't work, if people are suggesting that the Earth (The LAnd's Earth) is going to start all over again.

Berek was NOT Adam..he wasn't the first man, remember, the Collosus was there anciently before Bereks time.

drew wrote:A couple of aguments against the Someone has to be Berek thing.

If Roger, or Jerry, or TC turned into Berek, why the name Berek?

Why wouldn't it be the legend of Jeramiah Halfhand?

Well, we don't know the full story yet, do we?

drew wrote:The Timeline doesn't work, if people are suggesting that the Earth (The LAnd's Earth) is going to start all over again.

Berek was NOT Adam..he wasn't the first man, remember, the Collosus was there anciently before Bereks time.

You lost me on this one.
What's your point?
Who is saying that Berek was the "first man"?

I see the Roger story being important but secondary to the Main one, like the Troy/Forestal one.

I'm working with what we already know.
That the caesures open up every point of time in the Land's history and working from there.
To speculate further based on future book titles is anyone's guess.

I think all this is too obvious. In my experience of Donaldson, if we can think of it, we're wrong.

To HLT:
Well, it has been disscused, and questioned around here, that time will do a complete circle, and start all over again, with one of the now-a-days people as Berek.

But Berek wasn't born until thousands of years (Or Longer) after the Land was Created.

Therefore it would seem odd, that one of the poeple in the Land now, would become Berek.

Unless you are thinking that they will just Ceasure back to Bereks time..in that case, I'd have to agree with Cov Jr--that seems too obvious.

It seems hinted at elsewhere, but I can't find anyone's theory that things are really going to go badly for the Land. Take this for example: Donaldson admits that he conceived of the ending of the Last Chronicles around the time he conceived of the ending of the Second Chronicles. Using that, look how the Second Chronicles ended; with the unspeakable...Covenant dying (in a sense). He had to surrender his life (and essentially give up his ring) to save the Land.
So what could top that? Destroy the Land to heal it? The ol' paradox in motion?

So what do you think? Ritual of Desecration? Or just a simple breaking of the Arch of Time?

Just pure speculation though.

drew wrote:To HLT:
Well, it has been disscused, and questioned around here, that time will do a complete circle, and start all over again, with one of the now-a-days people as Berek.

But Berek wasn't born until thousands of years (Or Longer) after the Land was Created.

Therefore it would seem odd, that one of the poeple in the Land now, would become Berek.

Unless you are thinking that they will just Ceasure back to Bereks time..in that case, I'd have to agree with Cov Jr--that seems too obvious.

I think that SRD has given himself a window for multiple things to happen.
I never really considered the circle concept as you just described though.
It's interesting but I see time as a line.
And I see everyone (and everything) who exists in the Land today (Last Chron time) as toast at the end of the series.
Toast, ashes, dust, dead....
So I don't see the people of the Land and the Giants and everyone else being saved in the last chapter via a caesure.
But maybe a select few can jump back into the Land's history via a caesure.
And even then I can see how only someone from outside the Land like Roger could do that safely and not damage the Arch whereas Liand, with his reality based in the Land would really do some damage. (But even then SRD has said that the Arch can heal itself so even Liand going back permenately might be possible).

This also fits with the theme of TC growing or accepting who he is.
Changing the past changes his growth.
So a closed circle doesn't really make any sense to me in that regard.

Ok, now I'm thinking, sorry everyone!
There is also the possibility that Joan or Kastenessen or someone actually kills Berek at a certain point in the past and Linden and Company have to replace him before the Arch is destroyed by the change!
Maybe it's not the person that's important but the acts that the person does.
That would be wild!
I still say that somehow, somewhere Roger is connected to Berek. The physical resemblance to TC is just too much of a coincidence.

I'm going on a limb here, so you can all laugh at me later. These are my predictions for the rest of the Last Chronicles:

The Thomas Covenant that returned wants Linden to give the ring to him. Linden refuses, several times, on vague doubts. Eventually these doubts are vindicated in a harrowing way.

The Jeremiah that returned is not right either, but Linden keeps ignoring the warning signs. He will cause a murder mystery.

The Demondim will destroy Revelstone. The survivors will flee from the back door to the uplands.

Linden finds out that she can use the Staff of Law to close the caesure to the Illearth Stone. This gives the good guys critical time while the Demondim have to call from somewhere and master a new caesure.

Except for Kevin's Dirt, Andelain is much as it was. It then gets severely damaged in a skurj attack/Mount Thunder eruption while the good guys are visiting.

It will be revealed that Esmer used a caesure as a tool to break the Durance and free Kastenessen. Esmer becomes a real villain.

The Mahdoubt is revealed to be Esmer's twin sister that is everything Esmer is not and the other way around. She will give critical help in countering Esmer.

"Fatal Revenant" will end with Kastenessen's defeat by the good guys, but there are increasing signs that Lord Foul's agenda is progressing to his satisfaction.

Giants return to the Land as refugees from the war against Sandgorgons.

Someone unexpected is found to wear a croyel.

After realizing how much her choices have helped Lord Foul, Linden seriously considers the Ritual of Desecration. She does not do it.

The Staff of Law is lost. Since the Staff is so young it can warped to support a wrong kind of law entirely and Lord Foul is able to wield it without damage to himself. Linden's caesure-creation and healing of Waynhim and ur-viles helped in this.

The white gold ring that was originally Covenant's is lost or destroyed and the good guys cannot get it back. But they can get to Joan. Dodging white gold blasts all the while, Linden drives Herem away from Joan and tries to heal her broken mind. Joan becomes lucid for a while, gives away her ring, and dies in Covenant's arms. "Shall Pass Utterly" ends soon after.

The good guys find themselves in an impossible situation and have to use a caesure to escape to the future. During the intervening time the Land has come to resemble the Night Land from William Hope Hodgson's book of the same name. The heavenly bodies are gone and the Land is now lit only by occasional volcanism. Viles and other monsters have the run of the place, but humans still remain. This is one of the main reasons for the title "The Last Dark".

Shock: Lord Foul is revealed to contemplate suicide. That's not a good thing, since if he cannot get the Arch broken this time, he will awaken the Worm and take everything to the last dark with him.

Many dead old heroes are brought back to fight, but it's on Lord Foul's side.

Linden will find Jeremiah and face the situation Lord Foul threatened her with early on, but it will go better.

Jeremiah and Sandy, who was brought to the Land by the bad guys to help take care of Jeremiah, will save the world when Covenant and Linden cannot. Jeremiah and Sandy will fall in love and return to the real world.

In the end the world is destroyed and remade. Lord Foul is shut into his own dimension where things are as he wants them to be. Since a flaw is necessary in the arrangement, he will be able to get out sometimes. This is inspired by the Sandgorgons' Doom and bears an incidental resemblance to the Candyman movies. Say "Lord Foul" three times in front of a mirror and Lord Foul will appear, grab you, and take you to Hell.