Kevin's Watch

"Warning: Belief-O-Matic™ assumes no legal liability for the ultimate fate of your soul." I love it!

Top 2 on my belief-o-matic score: "Orthodox Quaker 100%" and "Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants 92%"

So there you have it, who'd have thought?

JemCheeta wrote:Avatar, you say you're a discordian, but I suspect you're just a cabbage with a keyboard.

Cabbage or Chao, the differences may be debateable. Is happiness more important than self-improvement?

Lhaughlhann-- Welcome aboard man. Good to see a growing South African contingent, however slowly.

--Avatar

I am proud to annouce that I have been ordained as a reverend by the universal life church of modesto CA. I can know preside over weddings, funerals, baptisms, and the all important absolution of sins.
For those who know me this is done entirely as a joke.

Jem - what is self improvement, how do you quantify it and to what ends is it focused? Surely focused to happiness and self fulfillment?

Ultimately I suppose that self improvement is only measured by yourself, so maybe my question is irrelevant? I like to feel better about myself, whether that be doing someething for someone or learning a new riff. Maybe we share a creed.... fancy being ordained? Father JemCheeta, ha ha

If I wanted to be ordained, I would ordain myself, and it would be my choice of title

Of course, I wouldn't let others choose whether or not to refer to me by that title. They'd simply have to.

"Hey Jem, could you forward me that web page on final fantasy tactics?"
"I only respond to God-King or Your Absolutely Freakin Greatness."

Oh yeah. And as to the question, definately I choose self fulfillment and happiness to be my measuring sticks. Only because this implies a whole lot more than meets the eye.
I can't imagine being totally happy when suffering still exists in the world, for example.

What difference is there between self-fulfillment and self-improvement? And again, is happiness more important than either of these?

--A

JemCheeta wrote:Oh yeah. And as to the question, definately I choose self fulfillment and happiness to be my measuring sticks. Only because this implies a whole lot more than meets the eye.
I can't imagine being totally happy when suffering still exists in the world, for example.

But you could be happy with yourself, couldn't you? I mean, you can't expect yourself to totally erradicate suffering...but you can have peace despite the fact that there is still suffering in the world if you know that you're doing what you can to fight suffering.

In this, I think, self-improvement and self-fulfillment can overlap...if you feel like you're not doing enough (to continue with this example) to fight the world's suffering, then you'll probably try to do more (if you're seeking to improve youself), and therefore you'll feel fulfilled (or at peace) because you know you're trying your best...and happiness will likely follow those things.
That's the theory, anyway...life and fulfillment are more complicated than that, I think...

Avatar wrote:What difference is there between self-fulfillment and self-improvement? And again, is happiness more important than either of these?

--A

My only purpose is to enjoy life. If there is another purpose, I'm not aware of it, nor do I want to be. It might get in the way of my Babylonian hedonism.

In short: yes, I think happiness is more important. Then again, I also think they're reciprocal; I only feel self-fulfillment when I'm happy, and I only feel self-improved when I'm happy.

Iryssa, I agree

in fact everyone I agree, I woke this morning feeling particularly self fullfilled even though my little one persisted in getting up half the night!

Happiness is of course entirely subjective as are all the themes in this thread. Maybe the question should be "is pursuit of happiness/fulfillment etc a religion, and are they results that religion can provide for you?"

Maybe, I could go further and say that those that can't find happiness and fulfillment in themselves need religion to direct them....

I can understand that, I'm irreligious (just in case I hadn't made the point previously, heh, ) and I'm very happy, BUT, I'm always looking for a little extra happiness etc. My angle is that I don't get it from pursuing a faith, I prefer to challenge myself doing something - whether that be laying a concrete floor (very challenging and only vaguely fulfilling, maybe this is akin to penance!) or learning something new, or teaching my kids something, or just revelling in how beautiful my wife is.

Is this making sense? Also, does "fulfillment" have a single or double "l"?

Whatever, the key is inside you and I don't think you need to look any further. I think we spend too much time looking outside of ourselves to gain absolution, redemption, happiness whatever, when really we perhaps whould be diverting that energy to finding out more about ourselves, so we know what makes us tick and then how to make it tick better and louder!

Now, I'm off to study my navel, see if I can find out more about myself.

Unfortunately my studies revealed nothing more that blue fluff.

Ever see those "Militant Agnostic" bumper stickers... "I don't know, and neither do you!"?

Well, I wish they had one for me: Apathetic Agnostic - I don't know, and I don't care. Maybe if they had a "Go worship your horse every other weekend, and by worship we mean feed him peppermints" religion...

hamako wrote:Maybe, I could go further and say that those that can't find happiness and fulfillment in themselves need religion to direct them....

An interesting consideration, and one I've often thought of myself. Now on the whole, I have nothing against people finding solace in religion. It's probably one of the best uses religion can be put to.

hamako wrote:Is this making sense? Also, does "fulfillment" have a single or double "l"?

Yes it is, and it has a single "L"

hamako wrote:Whatever, the key is inside you and I don't think you need to look any further. I think we spend too much time looking outside of ourselves to gain absolution, redemption, happiness whatever, when really we perhaps whould be diverting that energy to finding out more about ourselves, so we know what makes us tick and then how to make it tick better and louder!

I agree. I too tend to think that the answers can, and perhaps even should, be sought within us. Humanity has more potential than I think religion gives us (or allows us to take) credit for.

--Avatar

Well, I could be content with myself, knowing that I am doing my best to help others, but I'm looking at happiness by degrees. If I was surrounded by a loving family, with great activities all the time for me to enjoy, doing good works and in general being what means to me a 'good' person, seeking self fulfilment (which I believe is synonymous with happiness), I would be VERY happy.

If I was all of those things, and there was no war or hunger or disease... I'd be quite a bit happier.

Saw a great quote this weekend:

The foolish man searches for happiness at a distance. The wise man grows it beneath his feet.

Also saw recently that scientists have discovered the brain area that "generates" happiness, and have come to the conclusion that "happiness" may be a skill to be developed, rather than a natural state of being.

We make ourselves happy. Or depressed, or whatever. It seems that it really is a matter of perspective.

--Avatar

Happiness is -definately- a skill. Plato calls it 'knowledge of the good', but what he is talking about, is perfecting the art of human happiness.. iow aligning your perceptions of the universe in such a way as to feel the most happy. It's the kind of thing that Robert Pirsig is suggesting in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenince when he refers to the metaphysics of quality.

I wonder if the same can be said of pessimism, or whether that's simply the lack of happiness skills.

I suppose the same could be said of it, if being pessimistic offers your life advantages. It's certainly possible to make yourself more pessimistic, so why couldn't it be a "skill"? Although perhaps "anti-skill" would be a better description?

I like the idea of aligning your perceptions in a way that makes you happy. And as we've mentioned elsewhere, aligning your perceptions can very well change reality in such a way that you are more happy.

--Avatar

Plato doesn't use the word skill to talk about this (well, partly because he wasn't exactly an english wiz ) the word he uses translates to Science. And he says there can only be a science of something if that thing exists, if it is possible to 'know' something through it, without exception.

He does not think that communications is a science. That is, the politician and the rhetorician are useless to him. Think about it, let's say you have the BS in BS, and everyone else knows everything else except how to BS. Your knowledge then becomes useless, and everyone elses is still valid. How can you advertise a product if everyone can already make the informed decision? Can you convince a scientist that the earth is flat? No. They know better.

The science of happiness is also power to him, because he defines power as the ability to get good things for yourself. If having money does not get you good things for yourself, and the only good thing btw is happiness as far as he is concerned, then having money does not equate with power.

As far as pessimism being a skill, or a science, he would say no...because it would already be included in the science of happiness. If you know how to make yourself unhappy, you know how to make yourself happy. But remember, he and I are both determinists. We don't believe that if you know that something will make you unhappy, that you can still do it.

We differ on a lot of other points these days though.

The Beliefnet thing was funny. I was 100% Neo Pagan, and 83% Mahayana Buddist. I chose Pagan on the poll. I dunno, I guess people in your world just haven't recognized Raverism as the one true way to eternal happiness. Aside from chocolate, that is.