Is the Land real?

[Skyweir]

thats an interesting perception .. what if it does make TC twisted as Kevin became .. we are told in the chrons. that his decision to invoke the RoD was responsible for Kevin's craziness ..

..ofcourse TC has not wrought destruction on the Land but aided its healing by his defeat of Foul .. but his past he never truly reconciled himself with .. and as we know TC does possess the propensity for self-depreciation!

.. a very interesting question you have raised ..

And if Foul was ever loosed .. he may well be a force to be reckoned with .. he may well reak havoc for the Creator. Its clear that LF is not of the same level as the Creator .. because he seems to be a destroyer .. one who takes joy from placing banes in others creations .. Maybe he failed in the schooling of Creators and now is envious of their increased power and ability. who knows??? ..

[amanibhavam]

I see the relation between the Creator and LF as that between Ilúvatar and Melkor, greatest of all Valar
as to whether LF can be destroyed, "killed", hard to say - are there any rules perceptible to us that can be applied to a transcendental being? a god?

can the Worm of the World's End destroyed? or is it just as immortal as the Creator?

[Tohrm]

Here's another thing to think about. TC did not invoke the RoD, but because LF did twist the law of the land around as badly as he did between the 1st and 2nd chrons., it might twist him somewhat.
He is stuck in the land now for all of eternity. And it was stated in TWL that the law was pretty much destroyed. LF twisted it around to serve himself, instead of serving the creators' original vision. The Colossus is gone, and the land will most likely never heal to the way that it was in the 1st chrons. Many things will have been lost between the 2nd and 3rd chrons., never to return. And that is even with a new SoL. In this regard, the land is now damaged to have become a mere shadow of what it once was. The LoD is broken, as is the LoL? So would this twist TC, or would he be able to withstand this desecration to the land using his stubborness?

[Fist and Faith]

I haven't read this thread yet, but I didn't want to start the same topic with these thoughts, so I'll read it after I post this.

And, obviously, lots of spoilers for both Chronicles.

I'm becoming convinced that the Land is the dream that Covenant first assumes it to be. The reason? Covenant is the wild magic.

Let me try to make myself clear. Han-shan recently said that Mhoram might have more accurately said, "You are the wild magic." Because the white gold was the tool that allowed someone to use the wild magic - to use Covenant. Foul and the Kemper both knew that Covenant had to freely give them the white gold. What that means is that he had to give them permission to use him. As he gave Troy permission to use him. Han's thinking about this particular power is, if I'm right about it being a dream, off. Not having had Covenant's permission, like if he had taken the ring by force, would have left Troy powerless, regardless of Troy's belief in his own ability and justification to use it, because the wild magic is not a power that is simply out there waiting to be used. It is Covenant's conscience, fear, dignity, etc., and, therefore, entirely his to give or not.

When Covenant dies at the end of the 2nd Chronicles, he fully joins the Arch - he becomes the fullest manifestation of his role as that reality's core. (Caer-Caveral's death having given him the ability to act in this state.) As Han also, I believe correctly, said, if Covenant had given the ring to anyone, and that person had given it to, and been killed by, Foul, that person would not have been able to place him/herself between Foul and the Arch. Only Covenant could do this, because only Covenant is the wild magic.

Now how in the heck could it be that this guy from our world (or, if you prefer, his world) is the keystone of the Arch of Time in - the very foundation of - that reality if he did not create that reality? If the Creator could not enter the Land without breaking the Arch of Time, then the fact that he could go to Covenant's world without breaking the Arch must mean that it is not within the Arch. It is of a different reality. So-

1) the Creator made this seperate reality, and put the keystone of the Arch of Time, in the form of Thomas Covenant, into it. Or

2) this person from this seperate reality just happens to be the keystone to this other reality for no apparent reason. Or

3) Covenant is dreaming the whole thing up.

[hamako]

Whether the land is real or not isn't the central debate imho. I think the turning point at the end of the first chronicles perhaps s that TC finally stopped caring about the land's reality and accepted what was going on on, real or not.

[Fist and Faith]

I quite agree that it's not the central debate. As SRD said, In reality as in dreams, what matters is the answer we find in our hearts to the test of Despite. But it is a fun debate! Or at least a fun point to ponder.

[Skyweir]

I disagree .. the Lands reality or non-reality is pivotal .. to the dynamic of the story.

I am of the opinion the Land is real .. and TC didnt just come to accept it whether it was real or not ..

that would entail his indulging in a fantasy .. a non-reality .. that would have left him defenceless in his own real world survival .. '

I see that if he did accept the unreality of this other world as part of his reality .. that he simply surrendered to his psychosis ..

but to me TC was not experiencing a psychotic episode .. he was infact travelling between worlds/dimensions/ whathaveyou ..

and his acceptance of this 'truth' for him .. was the liberating force that enabled his potency in both worlds.

in summary .. the Land is real .. and TC had to come to realise it .. and when he did .. he was able to embrace it .. and maintain his sanity.

[Lord Mhoram]

Why is the reality of the Land pivotal? I agree that it is Covenant's acceptance which is more important.

[Kinslaughterer]

Sure the land is real. I have to chase the ur-viles away from my strawberry patch every morning. Every once in a while one of my archaeological digs pulls up a "bane of the earth" too.

[danlo]

Fist, the Creator has always been outside the Arch of Time--therefore it's somewhat easy for him to come to our world. The more interesting question would be since Foul expends all this energy to corrupt the cultists and posess Joan: is his going around the Arch of Time, or is our world actually w/in the Arch of Time somehow?

[Fist and Faith]

Come on Sky! Don't just say I'm wrong! Address my argument!

Why is the reality of the Land pivotal? I agree that it is Covenant's acceptance which is more important.

Yes. He came to realize that, for the umpteenth time , in reality as in dreams, what matters is the answer we find in our hearts to the test of Despite.

Fist, the Creator has always been outside the Arch of Time--therefore it's somewhat ez 4 his 2 come 2 our world.

That's my point. But only because our world is NOT within the Arch of Time. If it was, the Creator would have destroyed it when he came to our world, thus freeing Foul. Which means that the keystone to his creation was a guy from our reality.

The more interesting question would b since Foul expends all this energy 2 corrupt the cultists and posess Joan: is his going around the Arch of Time, or is our world actually w/in the Arch of Time somehow?

Uh... I haven't read the beginning of TWL in many years, so I don't remember the exactness of it all. Is it possible that there is a cult of people doing things that Covenant was able to fit into his fantasy? I mean, you and I can watch the news on TV tonight and find a story about some group that is similar enough to something that Foul would come up with.

[srtrout]

There's a few reasons why I think this topic is interesting and important, but ultimately not a question that can be answered, or even should be answered.

First of all, let's always remember this is all fiction. SRD didn't write it as "verbally inspired" scripture, but as a story which has a point to it.
That point can be gotten whether or not the land is "real", even whether or not you can "prove" whether it's real within the confines of the story.
(The "point" is complex and deserving of its own website; my opinion is that it has to do with having faith without proof and love without rewards)

Secondly,I think SRD purposefully wrote a story that could be interpreted two ways : the Land is either "real" or "not", and he left the text ambiguous enough for either interpretation. The meaning of the story has a different "flavor" depending on your opinion of what's real, just as TC's approach changed when he began to treat the world as real. (Would he have raped Lena if he thought he was truly in a real place, not a dream?).
The story is full of many paradoxes, with this being one of the main ones.

There are several analogies in the Bible. Some Bible stories, like Jesus's parables, are clearly not meant to be interpreted as real - they are stories with a point.

Some theologians think that the story of Jonah was never meant to be real but meant to deliver a point (the point being that God cares for "unbelievers" as well as believers!). Ironically, some (especially in the Missouri Synod of Lutherans) have used this argument to the extent that it led to schism in that denomination.

So, with fiction I feel it's a fun exercise to explore the realness of the Land, but one must keep the point of the writing in mind. There are many examples in life where it is much more important to figure out what is authentic and what is not, although perhaps it is still more important to keep the overall point in mindl.

[Lord Mhoram]

One of the points of TCTC is that the Land doesn't need to be real, as long as TC believes that is, which he did, even till his death.

[Samadhi Foul]

Sure the land is real. I have to chase the ur-viles away from my strawberry patch every morning. Every once in a while one of my archaeological digs pulls up a "bane of the earth" too.

And don't get me started on them there Cavewights digging around in my yard!

[danlo]

I thought I had Cavewrights digging around in my yard the other day--turns out they work 4 the City Water Dept... it's very hard 2 tell the difference...

[Samadhi Foul]

Our City Water Department people look more like ur-Viles.

[[Syl]]

I say cavewights. Most municipal workers definately fit the description of troglodytes.

[caamora]

I have been reading all of the posts and I want to throw out this question:

Do you suppose that TC was created by the Creator simply for this purpose - to save the Land? Since the Creator could not enter the Land for fear of breaking the AoT and releasing LF, the Creator could have "created" Covenant simply for the purpose of saving the Land.
Now, I don't mean that TC was conjured up from nothing, but that the Creator put into motion the birth and life of TC and molded him throughout his life to take on the role of the White Gold Wielder?

Am I making sense?

[danlo]

So as Foul posessed Joan, the Creator gave TC leprosy?

[Tenara]

So as Foul posessed Joan, the Creator gave TC leprosy?

Probably not as far-fetched as it might seem. He definitely was prepared to use TC to save the Land, regardless of the suffering it caused him.