Kevin's Watch

nice sidestepping of man's responsibility for his own actions. free will, we have it and abuse it. we war, torture, maim, rape, murder. and blame God for allowing us to do it. how 'bout stopping?

Despite the fundamental disagreement that Dennis and I have concerning the existence of god, he does have a point.

Of course, I could argue that the doctrine of free will is an equally easy way for the church to explain why god doesn't prevent the pain, the question that he concludes with is appropriate.

Same thing with war. If every soldier just sat down and said "bugger this for a lark", do you think that the generals would shoulder arms and have it out amongst themselves? Not bloody likely.

We enable them by doing what they want. If everybody stopped doing that, we'd have far fewer wars. But it seems that every generation has those who are willing to become fodder, on all sides.

Why the hell don't we just stop?

--Avatar

Who's sidestepping?
Not me. I wasn't speaking of man's injustice to man. I hold the atheistic viewpoint that the burden of this falls squarely on man's shoulders.

I'm speaking of this supposed god's injustice to man.

When an earthquake at sea causes a tsunami and wipes out 150,000 lives, rotting bodies being found a month later, spreading disease and yet more woe and pain and unspeakable grief, wouldn't any of us have prevented this if we could?

Either it was a natural occurence, or a god caused and/or allowed it to happen.
I believe it was a natural occurence because I don't believe a being powerful enough to stop it wouldn't.

When a child dies of cancer, so many people,doctors and family and even strangers, are doing everything in their power to save that life.

These are the things I was speaking of.

The things that I just can't accept an omnipotent being permitting.

Not a benevolent one.

I still need that simple conversation.

Someone said earlier that there is a difference between faith and belief. I might believe (i.e. think) that an ultimate god or gods exist, but this doesn't mean I have faith in it or them.

What is faith in the divine, anyway? I can honestly say it's not a concept I understand. Is it the belief that no matter what happens, it'll all turn out in the end? That all the good folk are destined for nirvana? That I'll see dead friends and family again? How does worrying about any of that help me live a better life?

A god could appear in front of me and explain whatever divine plan it's got cooked up, but nothing short of force could make me worship it. Love it, maybe, but never worship. Worship is something I am simply not capable of.

The only faith I'll ever have is in my limitations.

What would make me believe?

Probably when I concede that my (and others') ignorance about existential questions is a proper argument in favor of a deity's existence.
I will then say: "I can't explain, therefore god exists."

So all those that have asked me in the past: "But if there's no god, how do you explain life, how do you explain the universe, how do you explain this, how do you explain that... ?", all these people will be happy that I joined them in their collective fear of the unknown, the imponderable.

I hope I'll stay unafraid of ignorance for a long time.

What would make me believe?

Really delicious candy.

But, seriously, it would require something to the effect of God hitting me on the head with a frying pan and telling me he exists, or something of the sort.

Or, death. I'll believe whatever truth I see when I die.

testimony from believers doesn't help?

Dromond: mankind fell, and we continue to every day. God gives us a choice. we refuse it and then bitch because life ain't better. personally I am always astounded by God's patience with us.

So you say.

What you say is truth, I say is fiction.

I'm as certain as you are.

Alynna Lis Eachann wrote:The only faith I'll ever have is in my limitations.

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours."

--A

Avatar wrote: "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours."

Go tell that to Donaldson.

Tell him to take it up with Richard Bach. The quote is from Illusions



--Avatar

Dromond: i find your inability to search heartbreaking. knowing how wonderful God is.

Ah, but you can't understand the meaning of freedom the way an existentialist does.

JemCheeta wrote:Ah, but you can't understand the meaning of freedom the way an existentialist does.

There it is.

And did mankind really fall? How can you appreciate pleasure if you've never felt pain?

Quite right, Jemcheeta.

dennisrwood, thanks for your concern, but don't let your heart break for me.

Why would you think I haven't or don't search? Simply because I've not come to the same conclusion as you, I suppose.

I have searched, and I have found.

I was an indoctrinated catholic, now I am quite happy as an atheist.

A lot of searching has gone on and continues.

The more I search, the more convinced I become that the bible is merely Hebrew mythology.

And unoriginal, at that.

the largest denomination in America is Catholicism.
the second is lapsed Catholicism.

Probably at least partly because of the largest denomination.

--A

touche!

well played sirrah!

*bows, smiling*

--A

I was an indoctrinated catholic, now I am quite happy as an atheist.

I have to say, regardless of the respect I hold for the catholic church, the moment I left the church was the moment that my search truly began. All my spiritual growth and peace that I've attained since then was because of that.