Kevin's Watch

I just don't get any feeling of empathy from the church for the poor woman with her 7th kid on the way and an absentee husband.

What about the other 6 kids who will have that much less to eat?

Jem: the Church cares greatly about that poor woman. as we have social ministries designed to help. that we encourage each another to help our neighbors. and the Church actively preaches against the absentee husband. that the Church actively preaches gainst the society that produced so many absentee husbands. that we are ignored and so many continue down a selfish path is a great sin. and it isn't the Catholic Church that cut welfare. we argued against it. we advocate spending more money on keeping families together.
we advocate against abortion. we have a huge adoption agency. we minister in poor countries and try to build up the villages.

Dennis is correct. Catholic Charities do more good around the world than anyone else. The Church has missionaries in countries (India, Indonesia, etc) that hate Christianity. We do this not just for converts, but because people need help.

Aww, they hate Christianity in india? That's kinda sad.

Yeah, I know about the church charities (My mom's hobby is donating money to the catholic church)

So, the only reason that birth control is considered wrong to the church is that it lets people have sex without having children, right? Or am I misunderstanding something?

I'll be honest, I have no idea why the Church is against it. Something to do with spilling the seed, or the antiquated notion of sex just being for procreation.

I'm all for birth control, but that could be because I really enjoy sex and don't want 400 kids.

Amen brotha
Hallelujia.

Onan is the one who spilled his seed on the ground.
he was defying God's command to impregnate a woman. so it's not that. but that is the reason so many are against masturbation. but the sin wasn't masturbation, it was defying God.

the Church is against birth control because sex is for procreation. how can that be antiquated, as that still holds true? sex is reserved for married couples, as an expression of their love and their role in God's plan. the Church allows for family planning, ie the rhythm method. it is artificial birth control that the Church is against.

Well I think it's absolutely ludicrous.
Has anyone here ever actually BEEN a human being?

This is just silliness. The rythm method? Come on, that's almost a set up in itself.

How the heck can a biological act be 'reserved'?
Edit: A little too offensive

I have a huge amount of respect for the Catholic church. It's done so much for so many people, and so much for education and the furthering of knowledge (more for it than against it, by god).
However, this is one thing that really gets to me

Jem: it bothers you that the Church thinks we should be better than biological imperitive. seems by the abortion rate that maybe the Church is right?

dennisrwood wrote:...the Church thinks we should be better than biological imperitive...

Now there is an interesting take on it, I must say. Not that I agree with the thought of sex only for marrried couples, and even then, only for procreation, but that is something else entirely.

Should we be better than simple biology makes us? Yes. Should we be able to control those biological impulses? Yes again. If we can't doesn't that make us less than our vaunted "Human" status? Perhaps.

Still, I'm in favour of it, (birth control) for other reasons, but is there anything wrong with expecting us to be more responsible? to be more in control? No, I can't say straight off that there is.

Whether it works or not is a different question, but perhaps the church has faith in us?

--Avatar

dennis, I'd have to say God created sex for more than just procreation. Can you support from the Bible that view, sex being just for procreation? Although it is obviously meant to be w/in marriage.

Why? We're all a bunch of heathen sinners anyway

Listen, the Catholic church is a large organization, but not the largest. It represents one group of people, the Catholics, and the Catholics can do what they want with their birth control, etc. If any Catholic wants to have sex outside of the realm set out by the Church, they can go ahead and do so. It's their right to have their beliefs.
However, I think it's madness for them to start throwing rocks at the rest of us who hold to a different value system, and think that it's a better idea to have children when you want them, instead of just when you want to have sex.

Biblical Evidence That Contraception Is Immoral
Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. We cooperate with the Creator's love.

Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.

Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground.

Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah (like Onan) also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.

Deut. 25:7-10 - penalty for refusing to keep up lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.

Gen. 38:9 - also, the usage of the graphic word "seed," uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, highlights the reason for death.

Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. The family reflects the Blessed Trinity.

Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches reject this teaching.

Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. Deliberate sterilization is intrinsically evil.

Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful.

Deut. 25:11-12 - punishment for potential damage to testicles. Hence, vasectomies are gravely contrary to the natural law.

1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing with many children. Contraception = not your will God, but my will be done.

Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. We must be open to God's gift of life.

Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse.

Mal. 2:14 - Marriage is not a contract. It is a covenant - a supernatural exchange of persons with children as the fruit of the union.

Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. Contraception = God may want an eternal being created, but I say no.

Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, as God is three persons, yet one.

Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. God's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial.

Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.

Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love.

1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies.

1 Cor. 7:5 - natural family planning (NFP). Do not refuse each other except perhaps by agreement for a season, naturally.

Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.

Eph. 5:25 - husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church - by giving his entire body and holding nothing back.

Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g. surgery to prevent conception) is sinful. Some Protestant churches reject this teaching.

1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.

Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20- sorcery = "pharmakeia" = includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills = mortally sinful.

thanks to the Saint Michael center.

Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground.

Boy. I'm liking this 'God' guy less and less as time goes on.

JemCheeta wrote:

Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground.

Boy. I'm liking this 'God' guy less and less as time goes on.

Hahaha.

It's terribly unfortunate, but many church's notions about some things are quite antiquated and impractical in a modern society when applied to the vast majority of the people.

An organization that takes hundreds of years to believe that the Earth isn't the center of the universe regardless of overwhelming scientific proof isn't exactly where I'd go to figure out certain questions in life, no offense...

Which is why I'm liberal. For one, people deserve to do whatever they want with themselves. And, for another, solutions such as birth control and all, which really isn't all that liberal, but the subject matter here, are simply quite practical alternatives in a society that would otherwise have a great deal of unwanted children.

Beyond that... I mean, if we follow this biblical doctrine to the letter, forever, without changing its interpretation, then the world will be overpopulated indefinately.

If it's a sin not to have children?
Save us all. Ther'll be no food.

That's the thing. The doctrine changes, but it changes so slowly. Somewhere else, in the topic I originally split this one off from, I posted a news article saying that the Spanish Church had changed it's views on condoms, because of the disease prevention factor.

The pardoned Galileo 300 years after the fact, revised their opinion on war, and a coulple of other fundamental changes.

They do exhibit some sort of flexibility, but slowly, very slowly. And that doesn't have to be so. By definition, the pope is meant to be infallible, which means that he could change his mind at any time, and not only would it be alright, but it will always have been right.

--Avatar

but you don't want a new set of rules every decade.
and i don't believe that we need to change our views of sex. we are not in danger of overpopulation. and if you think that there are too many people for our resources, advocate building our resources, not more dead people.

Hmmm, a new set of rules every decade? Perhaps not. But then I'm not generally in favour of rules at all. People should be doing things becuase they know that they should, and they know why they should. And of course, those "whys" should make sense.

Resources are unfortunately finite though, while our potential for reproduction, when taken as a species, is not.

While I agree that resources should be managed and conserved, not all the will or effort can create them from nothing. Of course, it's not necessarily dead people I'm advocating, just less people.

--A

dennis, have to disagree w/many of those passages and the meaning you have taken from them. First off, after thinking about it a bit, you've mentioned the rhythym method as being ok, only artificial birth control as wrong. But that would go against your reasoning of why birth control is wrong, as you would be planning when to have children, which in these passages you argue we can't plan. Whether bc is artificial or not, its either wrong or ok. So I can't see how you can agree w/rhythym but not artificial.

The gist of most of these passages are about the blessing of children, which is a separate issue from birth control in my opinion. If my wife and I desire 3 years or so w/o children so that we can really get to know each other and enjoy each other before the kids come along, we are not ignoring God's desire for us to have children. The argument about not trusting God, I think that's a slippery slope. What about insurance? Do you have health, car insurance? Don't you trust God to take care of your body and car? Of course, but God doesn't want us to be dumb, these are means we can use to provide care for our body and car. Jesus says look at the sparrows, they don't store up for the future, but God takes care of them. Does that mean we shouldn't have investments, savings accounts, a stash of money somewhere? Personally, I don't think so.

BTW, the passages from Lev 18 & 20 are about homosexual sex and sex w/animals. I think its a big stretch to say God is speaking against "non-generative sexual acts," isn't it?

And in Deut 23, God is talking to Aaron, in other words, His guidelines for priests.

Acts 5, Ananias and Sapphira lied about their gift. It wasn't the act of w/holding, Peter says why did you lie?