Kevin's Watch

Vain's *purpose* is to merge with one of the Elohim to become a new Staff of Law.

The Elohim don't like being chained up, and Findail attempts to get rid of Vain in numerous ways.

But they don't *destroy* him, because either (a) they can't, or (b) they know enough to know that if their plans fail, if Covenant or Linden don't give them the white gold or fix the problem themselves, then eventually they will need to have a new Staff of Law, with Elohim power and ur-vile structure cooperating with Linden for the healing of the Earth.

My ranking: Viles, Demondim, ur-viles (and Waynhim), skest. Vain is a singular being and doesn't really get into it.

The Viles were so powerful that the Lords and the Demondim had to ally to defeat them. I've been suspecting that they are Elohim.

We know that that one Demondim ~ one Lord. We also know that one sufficient wedge of ur-viles ~ one Lord. There used to be many more ur-viles than Demondim, but on the other hand the mortality among ur-viles has been pretty big and they can't come back to life in new corpses like the Demondim. New ur-viles can be manufactured however, but theoretically so can Demondim (but they don't do that). Can the Demondim form wedges? Now that's a question. At least we know that they can share the power of the Illearth Stone among themselves.

I think skest are unsuccessful creations of the Demondim that the Demondim threw into a lake of fire much like Lord Foul did later with the jheherrin. (LFB mentions what the Demondim did with their failures.) Defiles Course is full of effluvia from Mount Thunder and presents a natural migration route for the skest.

I think Ravers may be Demondim, although the timeline has some problems. (I would really like to know more about the Viles.)

- The Demondim possess the bodies of the dead. The Ravers can possess both the living and the dead. This may be due to added strength or lack of morals.

- The touch of the Demondim is burning acid. The touch of the Ravers is burning acid. Sunder's mother got third-degree burns and Covenant first-degree. First Chronicles Ravers appear weaker and Herem managed to cause only burning, acidic sensations to Triock and Covenant.

- The Demondim are practically unkillable by mundane means. The Ravers are practically unkillable by mundane means.

- And both have been around a long time.

Stave's (and SRD's) description of the Demondim puzzles me a bit ..

on one hand they're described as a 'high and lofty' race, 'powerful and austere', and 'once friendly' to the trees.
However further into Stave's tale he asserts that the Demondim were 'the lore and bitterness of the Viles made manifest in slain flesh, corpses ... Clad in cerements and rot ...'

the initial description seems to depict the Demondim as almost Elohim-like in their demeanour, the two brief descriptions of 'high and lofty' coupled with 'powerful and austere' evoke creatures of deeply mystical lore; the words seem at odds with the zombie imagery later in the tale ..
Did the Viles do good or not ?

Re: Only because they made him in the first place. They know every last detail of his structure - that's why they could unmake him.


Here's a couple of things that's been puzzling me:

1. Why did the warped Ur-Viles want to unmake Vain in WGW? They obviously had some semblance of their minds left else they would have been incapable of using their lore. Did the Sunbane damage cause them to forget or betray their original Weird? Or was it something else? Maybe they had discovered that Foul also had plans, real bad ones, for Vain (or the new Staff)? Also, I wonder what they were trying to Command him when they first came upon him?

2. Why could the Sunbane warp the Ur-Viles at all? They are not creatures of Law so why would the corruption of the Earthpower be able to harm them?

(Question 1 may be in FR spoiler territory, but I may ask Question 1in the GI after reading FR)

Aleksandr wrote:Re: Only because they made him in the first place. They know every last detail of his structure - that's why they could unmake him.


Here's a couple of things that's been puzzling me:

1. Why did the warped Ur-Viles want to unmake Vain in WGW? They obviously had some semblance of their minds left else they would have been incapable of using their lore. Did the Sunbane damage cause them to forget or betray their original Weird? Or was it something else? Maybe they had discovered that Foul also had plans, real bad ones, for Vain (or the new Staff)? Also, I wonder what they were trying to Command him when they first came upon him?

2. Why could the Sunbane warp the Ur-Viles at all? They are not creatures of Law so why would the corruption of the Earthpower be able to harm them?

(Question 1 may be in FR spoiler territory, but I may ask Question 1in the GI after reading FR)

Very good questions.

Linden surmises that Lord Foul must have caused the ur-viles to get warped, because they are too lore-wise for it to be an accident. Maybe even as a punishment for making Vain. Or maybe just to get in Covenant's way.

I don't think the ur-viles are immune to the Sun-bane in some "automatic" way, just because of their nature. Their creation may not have been Lawful, but Law still holds sway over them. And they have never been immune to the effects of Earthpower.

Why did they want to dismantle Vain? Other than because Foul may have made them, and other than because they resented him for their punishment, it was probably because Vain started attacking them and killing them.

Linden surmises that Lord Foul must have caused the ur-viles to get warped, because they are too lore-wise for it to be an accident. Maybe even as a punishment for making Vain. Or maybe just to get in Covenant's way.

I've also long suspected that Linden's surmise may have been a misdirection from SRD. That the Ur-Viles did something else Lord Foul didn't like, and we'll find out about it in the books to come. Thinking about this, the latest Foul would have learned about Vain was during TC's first visit to Revelstone (but maybe earlier after the Raver attack on TC in the ruins of Hamako's Stonedown). A lot of time passed between then and the warped Ur-viles showing up in WGW. And sudden rage followed by crude revenge is very un-Foul-like. Usually he destroys people through sadistic and cunning manipulation, basically tricking them into destroying themselves. I think there's definitely more of a story here.

By the way, I meant to say that I was going to ask my second question in the GI (how the Sunbane could warp the Ur-Viles)