Kevin's Watch

Murrin wrote:But given no evidence of the existence of a supreme being, there's nothing to feel foolish about, since you had no reason to think otherwise than you did.

I guess I wasn't clear.

Ok you die, you believe, nothing there... no big deal cuz nothing there.

You die, you don't beleive, again no big deal cuz nothing there.

You die, you beleive and there IS something there... just peachy. Your beleifs were justified.

You die, you don't beleive and there IS something there. Imagine meeting a "God" and saying... "Oh gee, sorry. Guess I was wrong because you DO exist!" You would either feel pleasently suprised or embarrassed if you always prided yourself on being right.

Basically if you beleive there is no way you can lose! lol No one around to tease you about being wrong.

You must also realize this is only half serious. I am being facitious.

tag haha... your it!

Avatar wrote:(Although thanks for the implied compliment. )

Implied? I thought it was pretty blatant....

ChoChiyo wrote:I'll watch for you in the afterlife, Avatar. I want to have some serious conversations about the meaning of life....well, then, I suppose they will have to be about the meaning of afterlife

If there is an afterlife in which it's possible to do so, I'll be only too glad to take you up on that. (I'll be the nebulous, insubstantial grey/black shadow )

I'll be the stunning creature with wings like a butterfly.

Where did the idea for continued existence come from? It's not as though anybody has come back to say that the water is fine.
--Avatar

Well, this isn't entirely true....

There was Lazarus, Jesus, and my cat, who came back several times to comfort me after he passed on.

There's no scientific or measurable proof--but I have had my own encounters with "dead" people and I know others who have as well.

The whole religion/salvation/damnation thing is what has me bamboozled.

Uh-oh, this thread is sliding into There is God/There is no God territory. (Then again, doesn't every thread in the Close? Kidding, heh.)

What I wonder is what would happen (hypothetically speaking, of course) if it were revealed that (insert supreme deity of your choice) truly did exist. What effect would that knowledge have on the world? Anything? Nothing? Would it be business as usual? Would nations suddenly stop warring? Would the believers round up the ones who didn't believe and cast them down (in one way or another) for their lack of faith? Would former atheists (and agnostics for that matter) become second class citizens of the world? Will there be a new Cultural Revolution, but on a massive, worldwide scale in which all science, art and intellectual thought that does not acknowledge and bow to the new reality effectively cease to be relevant?

And most importantly, would it mean special half-price deals at Wal-Mart?

Well, I am not sure about the effect on Wal Mart prices, but I figure the lack of physical proof is for a reason. If you have a physical reason to believe in God then there is no point in faith. Also, what would be the point of living and learning? Life is just a journey of learning and growing. If we had all the answers what would be the point?

Personally I think the idea in Stargate that many of the old "gods" were aliens is pretty cool. I was thinking upon this while watching Stargate Monday on Scifi. This train of thought led me to think about God reveling himself to Moses as a burning bush. Hmmm... interesting. I have absolutely no doubt that there is a Creator out there and out of habit I refer to this diety as "God," but I begin to wonder how much of the stories in the Bible were simply stories to make points and how much was naivete of a less advanced people. I know there is a lot of vaild history in the Bible, but it is still interesting to ponder.

SoulQuest1970 wrote: If you have a physical reason to believe in God then there is no point in faith.

That's a great line, SoulQuest. Well said!

Just to finish up my pretentious and rambling hypothesis, I guess the mere proof of divine existence would be enough to render "non-religious" thinking irrelevant, no messy revolution required. It would be quite the quandary for me: I wonder how I would deal with such an intellectual crisis. I can't see myself suddenly running to sign up at the nearest church. If I were taking at face value the Biblical God of wrath and judgement, then I suppose I would be resigned to a fate of eternal damnation for being a faithless infidel. In which case, I might decide: screw it all, I'm going to enjoy what's left of my mortal existence to the bitter end, before I'm dragged down to whatever's the equivalent of Hell.

Gee, such nice thoughts. I don't know what came over me...

...Well,,,everybody has danced around it,,even mentioning by name in their recitations. Imagine that,,a virtual electronic ,,pow wow,, around and around the fire we dance invoking the Gods and Spirits to help us thru the day.
...Avatar,,your original post to this thread, struck me as a moment of doubt...we've all had them. What am I talking about? The BRAIN. Take care of that beyond imagination piece of Art and you'll have very ,,,very,,few moments of doubt. Its all about chemical balance,,in the brain. It was alluded to in the " our ancestors" post by loremaster..One school of thougt has it that we, homosapiens, didn't start evolving from the rest of the monkeys until we started eating the wild grasses and more recently cultivating the one we now call "wheat". Its said to contain protiens that actually nourish the brain,,help it " grow". So,, the " hard wire" does have a natural source.
...Well, that was then , what about today?...There is the food supplements with high contents of brain foods. There are the whole range of vitamins and mineral supplements,,etc, etc. With the onslaught of Mass produced foods these days,,the real quality of what we eat is being questioned. Keep the brain healthy and moments of doubt become rare, becuase the electro-chemical process that is your brain is in balance when healthy,,or another way to put it,,,you are too busy exploring and enjoying ,when your brain is functioning at its best,,to have a moment of doubt or at least pay it much attention...
...Knowledge, experience are what you gather,,,Wisdom and compassion are what you make with what is gathered....and are examples to the younger of what can be achieved with ones life. But none of it goes on,,if the brain isn't kept alive and well. Grace Slick said it,," Feed Your Head"...well okay,,it was the door mouse,,but pedophiles aren't politically correct these days,,.Now, let me know if that made your brain itch from the stretching...MEL

Good posts folks.

MatrixMan, I'll save you a seat by the fire.

My "acceptance" of a divine being would be conditional on him/her/it answering some important questions. If he/whatever could convince me that all the things that I find abhorrent about organised religion is actually the fault of people, rather than the intention of god, I may be persuaded. Otherwise, I'd rather remain obdurate in my denial than "worship" a being who, IMO, didn't deserve it.

As SoulQuest said, proof denies faith, and if god existed on faith, that would "kill" him. And while I realise that you were being tongue in cheek about the whole, "what does it hurt to believe", not only do I think that a lot of people believe on that basis, but also that to do so is "cheating" on some fundamental level.

I'd rather go to hell than base any belief on that foundation. (I know you weren't being really serious, but it's something I've heard more than once.)

Cho-- as you say, no proof to be had. Could argue Lazarus by pointing out that premature interment, especially in a culture which has strict rules regarding how long a body may remain unburied, was a common phenomenon. Hell, everybody has heard of people sitting up in their coffin/on the mortuary table even today with all our medical sophistication. Misdiagnoses, especially in the primitive conditions of the time, was hardly surprising.

(Butterfly wings? I love butterflies.)

Lurch-- It wasn't a moment of doubt in terms of the specific timing of the post, but certainly it's something I occaisionally wonder about. i.e. "Why do I bother cramming my head with every bit of information I can possibly gather? What good does it actually do me in the long run?"

I'm not sure that a healthy brain automatically reduces moments of doubt, rather, I think that the healthier your brain is, the more inclined you are to question things. And that's good. Doubt is good. Doubt forces us to constantly re-evaluate our position. To not take our opinions for granted, and to test them always against experience and observation.

--Avatar

I agree with Avatar. Uh, by the way, thanks for the seat, but I prefer to have my butt roasted in private. C'mon, if prison convicts here on earth can have the comforts of home, then surely little ol' me can qualify for a private butt-roasting suite in Hell.

The only thing I'm sure of is my doubt. That line must be from somewhere, but I'm not sure where. Anyway, concerning doubt, this was what I said in the "World Peace" thread in July '04:

If I seem a pessimist, well...what's wrong with that? I have doubt, and doubt is a sign of intelligence and concern. Pessimism allows the mind to operate free of ideology and rhetoric.

Ha! See, Avatar? I posted in the Think-Tank before you ever showed up.



Oh, wait, this is the Close. Dammit!

If I wasn't here, it doesn't count. And anyway, it's not past one's I'm interested in, it's future ones.

The bit you quoted was great by the way. I agree completely, and shall certainly use the pessimism bit. Certainty is far more dangerous to the rest of the world than doubt is.

Hitler and Stalin were certain, Bush is certain, the church was certain. Hell, practically every atrocity that you can name came about through the certainty of somebody that what they were doing was right.

As to whether you can get a private suite, I'm not sure. I doubt that the point of it is for you to be as comfortable as possible. In fact, theoretically, if you wanted a private suite, they'd probably have to roast your butt in the centre of a stadium seating 50 million.

--Avatar

A point you guys seem to be missing.

There is a HUGE difference between faith and organised religion! Don't you know I am a heathen? I was born and raised Catholic, but I am far more Pagan anyway. My soul is UU. I think there is truth and beauty in all religions. None are completely right and none are completely wrong... admittedly I think some are closer to the truth than others. Anyway, one need not sit in a church to beleive in God. Hmmm...

Ok. My oldest daughter, Alex, helps bring different ideas forth as follows. When she was 6 she was watching Prince of Egypt for the 100 millionth time. It was around Easter. She asked me and I quote, "Mama, what other cultures have empires?" I kid you not... she talks like this. Anyway, we discussed different empires which led to Roman empire, Jesus, God, Easter, etc. I explained what the Jews beleive about Jesus and what christians beleive. I asked her what she thought. She froze and I could tell she was afraid to answer. I said, "It's ok to tell me what you really think. Meemaw is not here." She relaxed and said she thought like the Jews do that he was a good man and a prophet, but not God. She paused thinking then said, "He might be his brother though." hahaha Kids... gotta love them. Then last weekend on our way home from her First Communion class (taken only to make the family happy... long story) she asked why do people sit in a church and worship God. I told her no one needs to sit in a church, but some people feel better doing it that way. I told her it is important to feel good and at peace wherever you are. Some people prefer to be with nature. She felt that was a good answer but then asked why do people worship God. I had to think about this one... about what I beleive. I asked her why does she draw me pictures or pick flowers for me. She said because she loved me and wanted to show me. I said that is why people worship God. She seemed suprised that it was so simple. It is just a way of saying "I love you."

Read Cosmic Consciousness! Most people are spiritually esoteric... meaning they want a religion to tell them what to beleive. Then you have people who are spiritually exoteric who ask the questions and want to figure the mysteries out for themselves. God is there even if you don't think so guys. The good news is he/she/whatever is ok with you not beleiving. In fact, God probably finds you guys interesting and amusing. Thinkers are a good thing. I also don't beleive in a fiery hell. Hell is a choice and it is of your own making. I think you can chose to just end, exist forever but in a void, or torture yourself forever. There is plenty of room in the after/before life for nonbeleivers.

Well, first of all, SoulQuest, it sounds like you're doing a phenomenal job of being a mother.

Avatar, just how many seats are you saving at this point???

OK, to try to keep this in the "Futility of knowledge" theme...

SoulQuest1970 wrote:I figure the lack of physical proof is for a reason. If you have a physical reason to believe in God then there is no point in faith.

I've mentioned this before, because I've never understood why it would be a problem. If I understand the story correctly, according to some, Satan was God's first and greatest creation; a beautiful, shining being who lived with, and spoke to God all the time. Yet he decided to not follow God. His certain knowledge didn't make him love or follow God. There are many views of God I would not love or follow if I was absolutely convinced they were real. To me, this sort of faith is not the issue, it's the ability to choose.

SoulQuest1970 wrote:Also, what would be the point of living and learning? Life is just a journey of learning and growing. If we had all the answers what would be the point?

I think there's plenty to be fascinated by and learn, aside from the questions of whether or not there is a God, or which God he is. As Merlin told Arthur (in the version of Camelot I saw on HBO many years ago): If you're bored, learn something.

SoulQuest1970 wrote:I have absolutely no doubt that there is a Creator out there and out of habit I refer to this diety as "God," but I begin to wonder how much of the stories in the Bible were simply stories to make points and how much was naivete of a less advanced people. I know there is a lot of vaild history in the Bible, but it is still interesting to ponder.

Since I don't particularly think there is a God, I think pretty much the same as you about the stories in the Bible. I think they were people's attempts to understand, and feel good about, what they believed.

If you have a physical reason to believe in God then there is no point in faith.

Picking up on what Fist said about this: True freedom of choice requires full knowledge of what your decisions mean. To deny us the definitive answer on God's existence denies us the ability to truly choose whether to follow him. Take myself, for example: because there is no proof, I don't choose not to follow God; instead I deny the need for such a decision. I see the question as irrelevant.
If the existance of a deity were definite - undeniably true - only then would I have the freedom to choose not to follow him if I wish.
The ambiguity of faith makes the decision to follow a deity meaningless, since one doesn't truly know what it is one is choosing to follow.

Proof? I have no proof that anything exists outside of my own perceptions. And yet, my perceptions show me a universe of order, to complex and too balanced to have come into being without planning. I see that what the BIble calls sin does indeed harm people, and I see so many of the teachings of Proverbs to be true that I don't doubt the ones I haven't personally proven yet. So, does that make me esoteric, or exoteric? I know the answer; I don't just take anything wothout further evidence. But I can't help but think that due to the simple fact that I chose to believe the Bible as it is, many will think I just took some easy, well-paved roed to answer my questions.

I agree with you, Dan. Now in Cathoic school no less, I was taught that some of the Bible are myths and legends told to make a point. Some of it is factual... a history. I DO think the Catholic church has gone out of it's way to leave certain things out. Also a friend of mine (we met at the University Cathlic Community- UCC in college and did Bible studies and retreats) pointed out a couple weeks ago that Jesus NEVER stated that he was the Son of God. In fact he said he was the Son of Man. Interesting. I will not even begin to guess what the truths are. Eventually I will know. I am patient. If you take the Bible as it is that does not necissarily make you esoteric. Do you read it and think and ask questions? Do you use it as a starting place for deeper thought? If so you are exoteic. An esoteric person would just sit back and say well the church says birth control is wrong so I will just beleive it because they say so. As for birth control... I mention that because it was one of my first questions. I understand that having risky meetings with numerous partners is potentially harmful therfore it makes sense for this to fall under the category of "sin." Well, a married couple that can not afford to have 6 or more kids would be in trouble if they continued to have more and more children. Not being intimate is not healthy for the relationship either so that is not really a good way to prevent offspring. In that case birth control makes compete sense and should not be wrong. So I choose to believe that there is nothing wrong with birth control, but there is something amiss in being permiscuous. I refuse to believe that the "church" says just becasue they say so. Therefore I am spiritually exoteric. Make sense?

And as one of my confirmation teacher said in religion class when teaching us about birth control... it is good to know about because if we were intent on doing it anyway despite it being a "sin" we should know all about birth control. When I told my parents they grumbled, "They don't teach that in the Baltimore Catechism!" lol

Avatar...sorry about that..I mistook your statement about ,,when we die, we realize how much knowledge we don't have(apprx)..so, my use of " doubt" was in the context of the Big Doubt,,as in,,whats the use of living since we're all going to die anyway..Obviously you and others meant your point to land on a smaller target..the micro doubt,,as in motivation to explore.
...Another way to put my point then ,,,would be,,the usage of " why?".? Imho, there is a difference in asking ,," why?" and asking " how is it..?" Try it sometime..as you formulate your question in conversation or in writeing,,stop yourself everytime you use the " why"..and instead,,use the "how is it". How is it, tends to set loose the inquirer to exploring the answer on his or her own,,while,,why,,tends to deflect the inquirey away from the asking person on to others. So,,when asking about the load, strain, consequences etc of knowledge,,putting it to others,,deflects away from what is a personal issue of the asker,,hence, my take of the Big Doubt and now,,the religious aspects being discussed. Where as if the discussion had been parametered by the How Is IT..the paradoxes of knowlege attainment,,experience, age, etc, may have surfaced sooner. By asking in the context of How Is It,,the enlightenment is more personal and possibly immediate...
...So,, no,,one will never know all of it. That is NOT the goal..the life aim. We invented computors for a reason.Its what one does with the knowledge one does have.,,as in wisdom and compassion . Those expressions are of more value to you and surroundings,,than having all the knowledge in the world.........................MEL

I think the most important point to make is that the last four letters or esoteric and exoteric are Eric.

Fist and Faith wrote:I think the most important point to make is that the last four letters or esoteric and exoteric are Eric.

For some reason I'm suddenly convinced it'd be a good idea to write a story with a character called "Esoteric Eric".

SoulQuest1970 wrote:...God is there even if you don't think so guys. The good news is he/she/whatever is ok with you not beleiving. In fact, God probably finds you guys interesting and amusing. Thinkers are a good thing...

I hope he does. I certainly do.

Some great posts guys. So much to comment on, and a pleasure to read. SoulQuest, I think that god is there even if he's not. So many people believe in god, it's almost unimportant whether or not he exists anyway. It's the same as if he does.

Fist and Faith wrote:Well, first of all, SoulQuest, it sounds like you're doing a phenomenal job of being a mother.

Avatar, just how many seats are you saving at this point???

I second your first comment, and as to the other...well, my goal is to fill an entire circle of hell with people I enjoy talking to. Eternity is a long time, and at least I'll have the benefit of great conversation. (Now, to continue my corruption... )

Murrin wrote:True freedom of choice requires full knowledge of what your decisions mean.

I really like that. Consider it stolen and put to my nefarious purposes.

dANdeLION wrote:...my perceptions show me a universe of order, to complex and too balanced to have come into being without planning. I see that what the BIble calls sin does indeed harm people...

Aah, perception. It's a tricky thing. My perceptions show me a world of chaos, a delicate state in constant flux, with the balance constantly tipping one way or the other, before returning to a level, and then falling in the opposite direction.

On the question of sin, I partially agree with you in that a lot of what the bible calls sin does harm people. But some of it has no discenible harm, especially in todays environment.

And if it's any consolation, I at least doubt that anyone here has taken an easy road. I've never encountered a bunch of people who put more thought and effort into their beliefs than is done here.

SoulQuest wrote:...In fact he said he was the Son of Man. Interesting. I will not even begin to guess what the truths are.

John 10:34. It's been under the noses of christians for all this time. (Very surprised that this verse made the cut in fact. As you say, much has been left out, edited, censored ect. Keep an eye out for The Forgotten Eden: The lost books of the bible and of course, the ever popular Gnostic Gospels.

lurch wrote:...Avatar...sorry about that..I mistook your statement about...

No worries, was clarifying, not criticising.

lurch wrote:...Another way to put my point then ,,,would be,,the usage of " why?".? Imho, there is a difference in asking ,," why?" and asking " how is it..?"

A good point, and an interesting distinction. Semantics: Ain't it great?

--Avatar

Fist and Faith wrote:Well, first of all, SoulQuest, it sounds like you're doing a phenomenal job of being a mother.

Uh, gee. Thanks.

All I can say is I try my best. I think about how I wish I had been treated and what I would have wanted to learn. When I was growing up questions were not encouraged... at least not the free thinking kind and I did not have permission to try to figure things out. I was told to accept what information was dumped into my brain by priests and the church doctrine. I just want my kids to have what I did not. I never thought of it as anything special or "phenomenal." I figure it should be the way any parent should be. I also make it perfectly clear that they are getting First Communions because of family tradition, but when they are teenagers they are not required to get confirmed. If they want to that's just peachy nd if they don't want to that is great too. I was never given a choice and that goes against the whole point. I was a sponsor to a younger friend of mine who didn't want to get confirmed, but was forced to by her mother. Her teachers felt she should not do it since she didn't want to, but they understood that this girl had little choice. I don't want my kids to ever feel like they have no choices. Thier decisions on what to beleive are theirs, not mine. Shouldn't all parents respect thier kids needs? All I can do is teach them what all sorts of beleifs, my personal beleifs and model my beleifs on how I live and treat other people. So far they are some really great kids. Hyper, but great. Nick is rough and in motion all the time and Alex can talk the ears off a rock (we have come to realize this is why rock do not have ears). Calli is fine until she is mad and then she rips a whole in your ear drum. Other than that, they are fabulous! lol

It's not a story, but it's a start...

Esoteric Eric

There was a young lad, name of Eric
Who thought himself quite esoteric
He learned, with a start
Nearly breaking his heart
He was actually rather generic